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Topic:  Before you make any "political" statements...
Arturus
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 10, 2004 5:45:37 PM    View the profile of Arturus 
I found plenty of sites with pictures of Americans firing on civilians and one that had a picture of them beating a civilian.  I did not include these links because our good friend Chipmunk here Im sure would have condemned these sites as radical and propaganda.  Well they do happen to be from very anti-war sites.

That being said Chipmunk, we have stats, I can find you more stats but they all say the same thing.  Ive given you a range of sources from the Christian Science Monitor to the Guardian to Medact to the Projection for Defence Alternatives.

Would you like me to find some ultra right-wing conservative site for ya?  Itd be rather bias but oh ya...you dont seem to mind conservative bias.

Either way Chipmunk, you cant deny that the Americans have killed many civilians.  Amnesty international thorughout the war condemned the use of cluster bombs since they had a devastating toll on civilians.

Tomorrow you will get part 2 of my research, the reports on how civilians were killed by Americans, not just the numbers.  Im sorry I cant go over there and take a picture of a dead mutilated body from a missile that struck a market place but man you cant deny everything.  Stop being so damn stubborn and wake up to the reality that it happens.  Ill also show ya post-conflict killings by Americans.

Finally, the suicide bombings are indirectly related to the invasion.  Had the invasion not happened, Islamic militants would not have entered this country to fight the Americans.  Remember, Iraq was a secular Stalinist country, the type of country Al Queada hated.  But now they are free to enter and kill any Iraqi who helps the "Great Satan".  So yes, the US is reponsible for civilian deaths and suffering, its the consequence of war.  War benefits no one, it causes chaos and carnage on both sides and nations need to take responsibility for the these aspects of war.

Rant to be continued
 
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No...I expect to leave on some beach with absolutely no name at all while I sail away on my ship...and then Ill shout the name back to you...savvy?
chipmunk man
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 11, 2004 6:28:52 AM    View the profile of chipmunk man 
I'm not denying that American troops have killed civilians. I'm not denying that war is a horrible thing. What I'm saying is that your numbers are inflated. I want to know how many civilians the coalition troops have shot, not how often the Iraqis kill each other.
 
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Arturus
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 11, 2004 8:56:14 AM    View the profile of Arturus 
Ive been giving you those numbers, yes they are high cause there were many civilian casualties.  Examine the number of civilians killed in the first month of the war.  Those are coalition forces killing Iraqi civilians in that number.  If you dont believe that what will you believe.  You cant find a 100% accurate answer
 
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No...I expect to leave on some beach with absolutely no name at all while I sail away on my ship...and then Ill shout the name back to you...savvy?
Ramon Stonefish
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 11, 2004 11:00:23 AM    View the profile of Ramon Stonefish 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2921743.stm

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0%2C12239%2C1148673%2C00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0%2C2763%2C919832%2C00.html

Look, we may have even shot our own precious news crew between us!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0%2C2763%2C926237%2C00.html

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=404&id=1009702003

http://scripts.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/printable.cfm?id=70179

Those are the first few links out of 15,418 matches for 'Iraq friendly fire'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?q=Iraq+friendly+fire&tab=www&go=homepage

That's the URL for the search I ran.
 
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Shazam
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 11, 2004 3:41:02 PM    View the profile of Shazam 
    Did you know that when we dropped the Atomic Bomb: Fat Man, on Nagasaki the government actually inflated the numers by about fourty thousand people to make the death rate seem higher.  Maybe they thought they could scare Japan a little more.  Imagine, they wanted to make it seemed like we killed more civilians than we did...  Interesting...
 
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Argon Viper
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 12, 2004 1:05:23 PM    View the profile of Argon Viper 
I dunno, the differences I see between those two is this:

Japan was a country where nearly everyone supported the government, and they were the aggressors.

Iraq was a country where a majority of the people (something like 70-75%) hated the government, and they were the defenders.

I still don't agree with the decision to drop a second A-bomb, but I understand that in a war like that, you had to kill some civilians.  In a war like the one in Iraq, we're supposed to be liberating these people, that was one of the reasons claimed for launching the war to begin with, we're not supposed to be killing them, especially not at the rate we are.

BTW, Chipmunk, you've got to remember that it's not necessarily the troops on the ground killing civilians, as far as that goes, those guys are generally pretty precise up until the point where they're ordered to fire on a crowd.

But we've been dropping bombs on targets from about 30,000 feet, and not only are those much less accurate, they also tend to kill a heckuva lot more people when they miss.  That's probably the main cause of civilian casualties.
 
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Argon Viper
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Kuroishi
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 15, 2004 8:16:51 AM    View the profile of Kuroishi 
Japan was largely a nation of fanatics during WW2.

There are some reports of school classes teaching children how to turn bamboo shafts into spears and use them against American landing forces.

In Operation Olympia(I think that's the right name for it), the planned invasion of Japan, there was no mention of an entire marine division after the third day because it was expected to be wiped out.  I expect this recolection to be inaccurate since it has been some time since I've read up on Operation Olympia.

Iraq may well have tried to do what it could to have supported the terrorist cells that would take the aid, but it is not largely a nation of fanatics.

We've replaced an evil that militant fundamentalists islams could actually tolerate since we were a bigger, juicer, and more appealing target, with an open invitation to give us bad press.

Last night one of the ducational channels ran a special, Iraq: One Year Later.  I didn't watch it.  If I want to find out what it really was like over there I'll talk to my friend that's in town on leave from the Army.

I'm willing to bet we'll have to go right back over to Afghanastan and Iraq not too long after we leave them.

Also I heard something interesting, but don't know if it is true or not.  The news agencies tend to toss terrorist kills in with civilians since they are not part of a recognized military.
 
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Argon Viper
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 15, 2004 9:52:23 AM    View the profile of Argon Viper 
Yeah, Kuroishi's got some points.  The main difference between militant Islam and the Japanese is that militant Islam doesn't require a nation.  You can conquer all the nations you want and they're still going to be there, nearly as strong as before.  There are only two real ways to get rid of an organization like that:

Number one, genocide.  We have to wipe out every single arab, turk, or just plain Muslim who may even slightly support these guys, which, in the process, will create more people who support these guys, who we then have to go and kill, creating more people who...  etc.  Now, I'm no fan of militant Islam, but I'm violently against this kind of strategy.  It's fundamentally flawed in that if you carry it to conclusion, it will lead to the killing of every person on Earth except for militant fundamentalists of other religions, who will then proceed to commit their own acts of terrorism.

The second method is to address the reason the people are supporting the terrorists.  Look, we're supporting at least 20 separate governments in the middle east who are all putting out more propoganda against us then the bloody terrorists.  Unfortunately, if we cut the cord, we can almost garuntee that they'll be replaced by a militant Islamic uprising within weeks.  And, if we allow a democratic system, the militant Islamics are likely to win the vote too.

The only real option is to force these dictators we support to stop airing their propoganda.  Then, after a year or two, we force more democratic reforms.  By then, the lack of anti-US propoganda should have made an impact, and we'll see a relatively more moderate leadership spring up.

The only thing standing in the way of us taking this approach right now is oil.  We're too dependent on them, and it's a powerful lever that these third world countries can use to pressure the most powerful nation in the world.  We need to cut some dependence, and then we can deal with the problem with no obstructions.
 
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Argon Viper
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chipmunk man
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 23, 2004 6:30:46 AM    View the profile of chipmunk man 
www.kerryquotes.com

Be sure to check the sections on Castro, gay marriage, the first Gulf War, and his support of Vietnam.
 
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Argon Viper
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 30, 2004 4:09:29 PM    View the profile of Argon Viper 
Well, I'm back from leave, and I must say those are some interesting quotes, and I agree with most of them too 

Anyways, there are a few things to consider when you present a website like that (and I hope you consider these things when you check out websites I reference).

The first is the source.  I'd like to note that when I accessed the site, the first thing I had to do was block a cookie from "right-wing.net".  Also, the site specifically calls itself a "Proud Member of the Republican Attack Squad!!!".  It is also part of the "Ring of Conservative Sites" and the "United Republican Network".

Now, I won't say that these are particularly bad sources, however, they are extremely biased.  Just as if you were arguing religion to an Atheist, you can't start with the bible, you can't argue politics to a liberal by starting with a conservative attack site.

The second part is to look up the background to the quotes.  I did so for one of the quotes:

"March 22, 2004:  Reports that the FBI monitored John Kerry's anti-war activities in the early 1970s are "a badge of honor" and a troubling example of government intrusion into peaceful and legitimate protest, a Kerry spokesman said Monday.  Golly Gee, JFK,  I didn't know that being involved in ASSASSINATION discussions was "legitimate protest"."

The site where this quote came from in fact goes on to expand that Senator John Kerry himself was never involved in, nor aware of the assassination plots, and that even Herbert Hoover's FBI cleared him of any possible threat.

A quote always has context around it, and if you're picking and choosing quotes that don't actually fit what you're saying, you're not likely to convince anyone of adequate intelligence of your point.

BTW, before someone decides to pull this issue up, I didn't search around for a quote that matched up badly, that one is, and remains, the first and only quote I have actually looked up from that site.  Other quotes may in fact be in context, but if I can pick one random quote and come up with that big of a problem with it, it's not too likely.

Anyways, please use more reputable and less biased sources in the future if you're going to bother using them in a political debate.  Something that requires a bit more than three minutes (by my watch) to discredit would be nice 

A pleasure debating as always 
 
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Argon Viper
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Daishi
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 30, 2004 10:34:02 PM    View the profile of Daishi 
All I got to say is wait until I turn 35 then vote for me for President, the world will be an interesting place before I get empeeched.

Even if didn't get empeeched I'm pretty sure I would not be re-elected.

My campaign promises:

Do everything I can to repeal NAFTA.

Use the military budget to go on a real drug war with air strikes and burning of drug fields and destruction of smuglers on sight.  While they are at it, stop illegal immegration.(One of the things that get me empeeched I'm sure, Mexico first then Canada)


Do all I can to reform even stricter campaing financing laws.  Limit donations to a single candidate directly to say $100,000 dollars total per election year, and $400,000 dollars to a party total per year.

If somehow I do manage to get elected I will not give tax breaks to the rich, after all the rich did not get to be rich by going 'yippie I got extra money, let's go spend it firvously' in a large part.

Also if elected I will not put anyone on my staff that makes more then $100,000, heck if I could I would make that the income cap to even be able to run for any sort of public office.

Some decent ideas:

This one came from my manager at Pokey Jo's but it makes a lot of sense to me.  I don't know how well this would actually work out on a national salary level so I'll just put it in the city level that we discussed.  Make the salary of public officals equal to the average income of the city that they are supposed to run.  That way they will be truely motivated to fix the economy.

Since I'm not old enough to run for anything other then county or city office I'll have to support someone else for president for the next ten years.  After some long and deliberate though and consideration of political observations, I'd have to say my new candidate for president for the next ten years will be Fury.

If memory serves me correctly he is old enough.  From our debates our politics are similar enough that he'll get my vote.  Best of all he actually seems in touch with reality.
 
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Sniping101
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 30, 2004 11:51:57 PM    View the profile of Sniping101 
in my experiance of trying to runn a debate against Fury i'd vote for Fury in an ellection. of coursee i cant vote for awhile yet, 3 years i think.
 
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chipmunk man
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 31, 2004 6:13:13 AM    View the profile of chipmunk man 
Hey, if I were President I'd bring back the electric chair and hanging. Some crimes are way to horrible to let the jerk just float away on a lethal injection. Kiddie rapists need to be fried, not druged up to the ears. For that matter, why not fry all rapists? And serial killers and anybody who performs torture, too. Maybe if you put the fear of their own horrible death into these criminals, they just might start thinking twice before hurting others.

And make the exectutions public, too. Just charge a small fee is all. That way it helps diffray the prison costs.

Ooh, I just reminded myself. Get rid of the cable TV in prisons. One, it saves money. Two, the inmates are in prison to suffer and learn the error of crime, not lounge about and watch Sinfield.
 
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[This message has been edited by chipmunk man (edited March 31, 2004 6:20:03 AM)]
Kuroishi
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 31, 2004 8:07:30 AM    View the profile of Kuroishi 
Capital punishment.

There are a few things that I have to think about on this one.

I'm all for having a lot of ways to fight the death penalty for the occassional person who gets convicted without actually being guilty of the crime but as long as there are so many safeguards it will wind up costing the country more money then just sticking them in a deep dark hole.

American prisons are soft by world standards but they are still not a very good place to be but I do agree we need to do more to make prison a more undesirable place to be.

One of these is an actual Alcatraz regulation:

1 Electricity is a priviladge not a right.

2 Rioting will be met by deadly force.

3 All prison facilities shall be surrounded by moats and live mine fields.

4 all new prison facilities shall be built on barely inhabital islands and prisoners shall be responsible for growing thier own food.

More to come.
 
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Kuroishi Wraith VEA
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Nehmen mir zu dein frauen von vernunftig preis tugendhafte.
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Afyon
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 31, 2004 9:45:17 AM    View the profile of Afyon 
The US would save money by not keeping those with mental disabilities in prison.  At least 15% of the prison population in the US is made up of those who should have psychiatric help at a hospital, not in a jail.  I think the number is most likely much higher than 15%.

Also, American prisons are definitely not "pleasent".  Take a look at the human rights report by the Inspector General in the US in regards to the prison in New York were supposed Sept. 11 suspects are being held.

Capital punishment is wrong.  One thing I always had to laugh at was that a large number of very religious Christians (Ive heard them called Bush's Christian warriors) support the death penalty, including John Ashcroft.  Remind me what the first commandment is you hypocrits.
 
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[This message has been edited by Afyon (edited March 31, 2004 9:45:44 AM)]
Afyon
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 31, 2004 10:51:02 AM    View the profile of Afyon 
Ok that was my angry little rant

Now for some factual discussion.

I see the following wrong with capital punishment

1. Its immoral and a hypocrisy.  You execute people for killing someone.  The law says you can not kill save in self defence in which there is immediate danger to yourself or another person.  Now lets look at this.  You can not kill.  What is the death penalty...oh ya its killing someone.  Hmm.  Lets think about this for a second, you cant kill...but you can.  Who has the right to decide who lives and who dies and who has the right to take a life.  The UN declaration on human rights and freedoms states everyone has the right to life.  Everyone, including murders have the right to life.  Yes they violated someone else's rights but by killing them you have also violated that standard.  In other words, capital punishment fails to take the moral high ground that is essential to a proper justice system.  If you kill the murder, you are not better than he is and by this logic, you should also be killed.  Capital punishment essentially states that "killing is right if you believe you are justified to kill".  If you cant see how that logic doesnt fly then you have been quite simply brainwashed into thinking capital punishment somehow holds the moral high ground of justice.

2. There are too many people who have been taken off death row because their cases werent tried fairly, there is new evidence, or they can now prove a defence that they didnt find before.  Who knows how many innocents actually have been executed.  Ironically I found this article today and I thought it was fitting as an example

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3584539.stm

I can find many more I am sure, no time at the moment.

So take a moment and think about the dangerous moral precedent capital punishment sets.  Also think about other punishments such as torture and how they are morally bankrupt as well.  Also think off all the innocent people who have been fried in the electric chair or gassed in a gas chamber.  Take a moment to feel their last thoughts, their pain, their so called justifiable death.  The killing of a person for killing someone else.
 
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Kuroishi
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 31, 2004 11:44:09 AM    View the profile of Kuroishi 
First off there is the whole seperation of church and state, so your arguement about the first comandment is interesting but to an extent ignores that basic fundamental part of our constitution.

Also there is a part of the bible that says 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth'.  There are a few interesting interpretations to that passage I've come across in my time, but I'll save that for another debate which will probably start right after someone reads this post.

I am somewhat undecided for that reason and many others about capitol punishment.  If you look at violent crime rates there does seem to be a relation between how many are commited and if there is a death penalty where the crime was commited.

There are differences between revenge, justice, and morality.  Sometimes to carry out justice we must set aside morality or else justice will fail.

Now is the death penalty morale?  Depends on who you ask.

Now the waters should be rather muddy from all my confusing rambeling.
 
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Kuroishi Wraith VEA
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 31, 2004 1:00:49 PM    View the profile of chipmunk man 
      Let me see, I'll start with the commandment issue. First, I feel that that is a bit more up to interpretation. A lot of the variations occured during the Middle Ages, when bored monks were the only copy machines. My Bible says "thou shalt not murder," and I think that was probably the way it was intended. My first supporting fact for that is that murder is a horrible sin, as demonstrated by the story of Cain and Able. Cain killed his brother Able, and was sorely punished for it by God. Second, God has ordered the killing of many a person, with two notable examples being the Great Flood of Noah and the Curse of the First Born son during the Moses saga. He also helped David kill Goliath. Thus murder is the horrible sin, with killing occasionally being necessary. The bored-monk-copy-machines probably altered things a tiny bit in different versions over the centuries.

      No, execution is not a pretty thing. But neither were the crimes committed by the murderers. If you kill someone else, you forfeit your right to stay on this planet. Besides, in the old days execution was first meant to be as much of a deterent as it was a punishment. Do you really want to risk killing your neighbor when you know that you'll be drawn and quartered if you're caught? Just reading about what they did to people who were drawn and quartered makes me sick. But it helped prevent the crime, because most people were scared crapless of what would happen to them if they were caught. Today, we're so "civilized and humane" to our criminals, that a lot of inner-city kids think that you have to have been in prison to be cool. People even run around in shirts that say the wearers are inmates in this or that county jail. I agree that we need all the appeals safeguards, the last thing we want to do is punish an innocent person, but once that person is in the corrections system, screw 'em. They break the law, they forfeit their right to a happy life.

      And thus ends my rant for now.
 
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[This message has been edited by chipmunk man (edited March 31, 2004 1:01:11 PM)]
Afyon
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 31, 2004 2:03:32 PM    View the profile of Afyon 
Well I believe strongly in the seperation of church and state, I simply stated that in a rather angered state.  Essentially I was using a flawed way of attacking the strong Christian fundamentalist support for the death penalty.  I certainly do not think in anyway shape or form that the bible should influence policy, Im all for removing God out of the pledge of allegiance and I wish they would take it out of the CHarter of Rights and Freedoms and the Canadian national anthem.

Chipmunk, my response to you is the same as what I said above so simply re-read and recomment :P
 
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chipmunk man
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 31, 2004 2:20:38 PM    View the profile of chipmunk man 
Afyon, I read your statement about the hypocricy of capitol punishment, and I understand what you are trying to say about killing because someone killed. I still support the argument that I gave above. Also, if you do no think that the Bible should be any influence on law, then why did you bring it up as a reason to abolish execution?

      The statements "Under God" and "In God We Trust" are historically based, as America was founded by devoted Christians. For the reason of preserving our heritage, I support leaving the pledge and coinage alone. Also, it's always been my interpretation that the constitution meant to ban state-sponsored religion, and not the simple mention of religion. What I mean by state-sponsored religion is when the government forces everyone in the country to follow a specific religion, like what happened in England when Queen Mary was running around burning anybody that didn't believe what she believed.
 
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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstien

"People like you are the reason people like me take medication." -Cool T-shirt

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Shazam
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 31, 2004 3:47:49 PM    View the profile of Shazam 
<--- Adding onto what Chip said...

    It is completely historical actually.  Infact, if it wouldn't have been for our belief in christianity or different religions for that matter, none of us would be here...  In God We Trust is a purely sentimental statement now...  We don't get rid of it because it's almost tradition... It's so, dare I say holy.  Not holy as in referring to Jesus, but the Webster version "to be seperated from others."  It might just be on a coin or a piece of paper but most of us have just simply come to know it...
 
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Afyon
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 31, 2004 5:34:17 PM    View the profile of Afyon 
Chipmunk I referred to the bible when i wasnt exactly thinking rationally.  Ignore that argument.  AS I indicated in my second post, it is my sane and rational argument against capital punishment

Ill delete my other comments as they were rather reckless and unnecessary
 
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Sniping101
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 31, 2004 5:50:50 PM    View the profile of Sniping101 
first off im am in this debate a completely nuetral party in the matter of religion sence i ignore it completely, i dont disbelieve or believe anything, i just ignore it completely. i dont think the religion should have anything to do with a law system if we want one that is unbiased, in my experance religion is always biased.

as for capital punishment, i was a whole hearted supporter untill i read afyons post a few seconds ago, and acctualy realized that it was a completely illogical and mentaly bankrupt idea and just another way for the government to set itself above everyone else. however i do think that we all have right to revenge, revenge i feel is a bit diffrent and i wont get into it because ill get vehmenent and mad and angry and piss somebody off.

oh but one thing about prison, my dad said he enjoyed it, get that ENJOYED it, of course his life sucked anyway, but still. . .
 
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Shazam
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
April 1, 2004 5:10:58 AM    View the profile of Shazam 
    Lol...  I'm kind of nuetral too, but I'm just saying...  In god we trust is more like a guideline, a traditional saying now.  No point in getting rid of it.  Also no real point in changing to pledge of allegience...  You don't like it, dont say it...  That's my two cents.
 
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chipmunk man
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
April 1, 2004 5:54:34 AM    View the profile of chipmunk man 
Exactly. Noone is forced to say the pledge. It is optional, and there are two or three kids in my homeroom who choose not to say it. What's ironic about that guy taking the issue to the Supreme Court, arguing that he doesn't want his daughter to say "under God," is that he doesn't even have custody of his daughter. She is being raised by the mom, who is a born-again christian. If I read the newspaper article right, he doesn't even have joint-custody with separation, so he has absolutely no say whatever in how she is raised.
 
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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstien

"People like you are the reason people like me take medication." -Cool T-shirt

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Kuroishi
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
April 1, 2004 8:45:53 AM    View the profile of Kuroishi 
Interesting thoughts.

I believe it was Geist who told me that 'under God' was not even in the original pledge and that it was added during the 1930's.

The problem with seperation of church and state is that most of the time people do take it too literaly and demand changes to pledges, currency, and laws.  The trouble happens when a nation is mostly one religion or another with no real balance with other religions, then the pledges, currency, and laws will reflect the belief of the dominant religion.

Religion is biased because humans are biased.  Which one is right depends on what you have faith in.  One of the most common beliefs in any religion that I've studied is that man has free will.
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
April 1, 2004 10:33:26 AM    View the profile of Shazam 
    Agreed...  But you must understand...  That our laws were based off of a semi-christian bases...  In other words, they were making laws that were parralel with the rules of god.  So if we make a government without religion, what is it that we will base our laws on?  But I agree, religion is bisased cause we are.  Never the less...  We set our rules from the guidelines of none other than god.  Or did...
 
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Argon Viper
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
April 1, 2004 11:06:12 PM    View the profile of Argon Viper 
Actually, the words "Under God" were added in the mid-50's to strike a blow at the "godless commies".  I personally don't think it should be in the pledge as it implies that you have to be a member of a monotheistic religion to be an American (I agree that it does include Muslims and Jews).

Anyways, I'm very aware of our cultural heritage being mainly Christian.  In fact, despite being an Atheist, I can recite more tales from the bible than I can facts from the historical research into it.

I was actually raised at home in a more Jewish culture, I've had as many Channukah's as Christmas's, as many Passover's as Easters, and I can tell you the background of the Jewish ones.  I don't believe in "Adonoi Eluheinu" (the Lord, our God), but I wouldn't give up the traditions or background for anything.

That being said, there still needs to be a line between church and state.  The last time the church actually controlled a western state, we ended up with the Inquisition.

Religion forms our values, and our values determine how we vote.  That's acceptable, it's something I wouldn't want to stop.  I do wish that people would listen to the New (peaceful) Testament as much as the Old, but that's another rant.

Now, when religion starts to interfere to the point of limiting the rights of others, that's where I draw the line.

For example, I have no problem with someone with strong religious beliefs not having an abortion, that's entirely their choice, and I support them on it.  However, when they start passing laws to limit the rights of others, that's going too far.

Anyways, as for the issues that have been discussed so far aside from that...

"Under God" and "In God We Trust"
I'd like to see the first one out to preserve the real pledge, but I've got no problem with the second.

And Capital Punishment.
Like Afyon said, if we do it ourselves, how are we better than them?  I personally like to think of myself as better than the man who rapes a woman and murders her.  I hope you do too.  Besides, it actually costs more to execute someone (what with the appeals and all) than it does to keep them in prison for life, so just let them rot.  Living with what they did will be worse than death for the ones that repent, and for the ones that don't, rotting should be bad enough.

Well, that's my input for the day, hope you enjoyed it.

And Dai, Fury, you guys have got my vote 
 
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Shazam
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
April 2, 2004 5:15:51 AM    View the profile of Shazam 
    I'm not trying to argue with you here, I'm just going to bring up a point here.  Did you realize,(don't know what the percent is... 97 or 98 I think) beleive in a higher power.  So I think that even if there is a small portion of the United States, they'd be up a against a much larger community of Chirstians or other religions for that matter.  "In God We Trust" is just saying we beleive in a higher power.  Or atleast the majority of us do.
 
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Afyon
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
April 2, 2004 7:41:42 AM    View the profile of Afyon 
yes but not all of those believe in God or Allah

There are other higher powers people believe in that arent "God"

Some 57% of Americans are Protestant and add in the other Christian groups and you are looking at maybe 70% Im guessing.  That leaves a lot of people believing other things (Im not sure what % Jewish and Muslim believers make up of the US population.  Canada is 2% Muslim...I would guess that similar to the US.)
 
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