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Topic:  Before you make any "political" statements...
Fury
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 10, 2004 11:54:28 AM     View the profile of Fury 
One, call the Japanese people "Japs" again and you'll find your account deleted.

Two, I actually have a degree in History specializing in Eastern Europe, Latin America, and some courses in Asian history.  So, professor, I can concur with your estimates somewhat, except that your timeline is inaccurate as Hirohito was backing down from those statements in summer of '45. 

While yes, your numbers on American losses are more or less accurate, it does not mean we did not use nuclear weapons.  Nothing you said disproved that, it merely explains why Truman used them.

Three, as for Saddam, if you went to ask him now, he'd say he was putting down a possible rebellion on his northern flank while in the midst of combating an enemy many times the size of his armed forces.  And you know what? He'd be right.  It may not have justified using the weapons, but the reasoning for it was sound.  Just as sound as sending a couple B-29s over Japan in 1945: to save the lives of his troops.

None of this is to say he was morally correct.  Hell, nothing has ever said the US was morally correct to drop atomic weapons.  I just wanted to knock you off your soap box long enough to make you realize that perspective, both long term and short, are necessary when measuring the acts of leaders in combat.
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[This message has been edited by Fury (edited February 10, 2004 11:55:06 AM )]
Sniping101
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 10, 2004 02:12:53 PM     View the profile of Sniping101 
ok, now lets look at this from my point of veiw, sence im once again bored.

i wouldnt even mind the US attacking Iraq if they had mearly said they wanted to take over the damn country, not "Save the People" or try and make it some noble calling, if they had just stated their true intentions. i dotn believe the war in Iraq was meant for any reason other to advance some poloticians career. im getting real sick of the US trying to hide behind a thin vail of imagained honor

ok, i got a bit sidetracked ther. WMD dont say anything about a country though, its not a decent reason behind an attack, if we wher to attack every country with WMD we would basicaly haveto blow up the planet and if it whernt for the enviromental effects i wouldnt even care about the use of them. i dont believe in "rules of war" or "War Crimes" Because ther is no honor in war ther is no reason to fight with any.
im tired and my thoughts are starting to get confused so im gonna quite
 
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Vukan
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 10, 2004 11:28:38 PM     View the profile of Vukan 
Dont call them Japs, but they do refer to themselves as Nips, so that would be acceptable.  And no, it is not like blacks calling themselves n*****s.  As for the WMD thing, completely different situation...but I do not believe that it was right to use the bomb for 1, and for 2, I also do not believe it affects the current situation.  This situation on the other hand has the same leader as when they used MWDs solely on civilians.  Any paramilitary organizations wokring out of towns and cities Saddam gassed were civilians, even if they were paramilitary. I think I had another point, but I forgot it.
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 11, 2004 12:46:01 AM     View the profile of chipmunk man 
I did not mean that to insult them, I simply find Jap easier to write and say than Japanese. However, I will stop using that term here if it does offend people.
 
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Raziel
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 11, 2004 06:36:19 AM     View the profile of Raziel 
Fury's historical backround >> you

 
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[This message has been edited by Raziel (edited February 11, 2004 06:36:34 AM )]
Arturus
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 11, 2004 08:21:18 AM     View the profile of Arturus 
Chipmunk man, there is more than one side to the analysis of the whys in history.  Do not fail to neglect that there are sound arguments against the dropping of the atom bomb.  For example, Hiroshima's harbour was mined to make it impossible for supplies to enter or leave the harbour.  Also, the Japanese had been all but defeated on the mainland so their strength had been diminished greatly.  Keep in mind as well, Hiroshima was said to be a military target which it was not.  Nagasaki had 100% no military value.  One other thing to remember, the start of the cold war and the realisation that America would be facing communism again.  What better way to gain some advantage by using a scare tactic and demonstrating the power of this devastating weapon.

Just some food for thought.
 
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No...I expect to leave on some beach with absolutely no name at all while I sail away on my ship...and then Ill shout the name back to you...savvy?
Sniping101
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 12, 2004 11:10:42 AM     View the profile of Sniping101 
well, if it getts you the advantage, why not, and who ever said a city had no military value, they could make weapons, clothing for the soldiers they could prossece food to feed the army, i doubt highly that they where doing nothing to support the war effort, heck even our people back home where doing all they could to help the war effort, so more or less every inch of a country has military value because its one more inch that can have some for of supplys ripped off it. what better way to make it known you had every intention of taking every advantage possible.

And from what i scape off several new sources he was attacking rebels, threats to his government. so would you just sit there and let your country, such as it was, be ripped apart; or would you bomb the hell out of the rebels. . .?
 
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[This message has been edited by Sniping101 (edited February 12, 2004 11:12:56 AM )]
Arturus
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 12, 2004 02:32:07 PM     View the profile of Arturus 
so essentially you are saying civilians are of military value and should thus be destroyed in war.

Your argument would therefore justify the slaughtering of innocent women and children.

Think about the implications of what you say before you say them, they may cause you to think differently.
 
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No...I expect to leave on some beach with absolutely no name at all while I sail away on my ship...and then Ill shout the name back to you...savvy?
Raziel
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 12, 2004 08:07:43 PM     View the profile of Raziel 

 
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Kuroishi
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 13, 2004 04:01:08 AM     View the profile of Kuroishi 
Kuroishi's psycho terrorist ways are a far cry from my own morality but even he takes it as an unbreakable rule to never kill a civilian in combat, of course once they arm themselves and start firing on his men then he'll use what ever brutal and effective methods are at his disposal.  In war there is only one rule, win.

As far as the past and the reasons for the war I'll have to do a variation of a quote of some of Polani's(sp?) philosophy:

Everything is a matter of perspective.  What one person sees another does not neccessarily see.

Based on the timing and way we've been fighting the war I'd say there were two major factors to this war in Iraq 1: Bush Jr. wants his dad to be proud of him for doing something that Sr. couldn't.

2: To distract us commoners from our internal problems.

Sure the dow may be over 10,000 and unemployment may be dropping, but why is it I know more people who are unemployed or about to become unemployed then are employed?
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 13, 2004 04:27:45 AM     View the profile of Arturus 
simple Kurioshi, despite what propaganda stations like CNN claim, net jobs since Bush has been president is -2.2 million and despite what he claims, 1.5 million jobs willnot be created by November.
 
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No...I expect to leave on some beach with absolutely no name at all while I sail away on my ship...and then Ill shout the name back to you...savvy?
Shazam
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 13, 2004 05:07:13 PM     View the profile of Shazam 
    Hiroshima...  Would you say that we won the war with that one bomb?  No. 
    I have some brain food for you Art.  If we killed all those defenceless people,(not implying they were armed of course), why exactly did we do again a few days later. 
    You could say we were trying to make people afraid of us...  I don't beleive that.  It might also be interesting to take note that the Japanese didn't actually surrender until after the second atomic bomb. 
    Maybe we had to show that we would do anything to defend out country, even if it meant killing thier citizens.  Not that I agree with that, but if you were the president, and hundreds of your men were dying at the hands of the Japanese and germans...  You have to ask youself, would you sacrifice others lives for those of the people here? 
    And they are related just incase you wanted to say they weren't.  Try to think of what would have happened if we did not drop those bombs.  That is putting the Japanese into both an economical depression and tecnological wipeout...  Let's say they made a devestating move on us, which I don't actually think was possible at that point.  But just ponder that real quick...
 
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Talon
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 13, 2004 05:21:06 PM     View the profile of Talon 
Does anyone actually plan on changing someone else's mind? I always wondered what the point of these arguments was.. aside from the ego boost of showing that you THINK you know something.

But I know I'm not going to change your mind. Continue on. Throw facts that you made up at me to disprove some point that I never tried to make.

Yeah.
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 13, 2004 05:37:17 PM     View the profile of Rema 
I was gonna read the posts here, but decided not to because Talon's basically right. That and i would HAVE to argue.
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 14, 2004 05:32:44 AM     View the profile of Shazam 
When I posted, I was originally ganna suggest you delete this thread completely, then I read up on Hiroshima and figured I had to argue about it somehow...
 
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Sniping101
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 14, 2004 12:37:16 PM     View the profile of Sniping101 
err. . .ya art, you summed up what i said real well, now what was your point?
 
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Vukan
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 15, 2004 01:40:08 AM     View the profile of Vukan 
I am trying to convince Art and Fury that I am right.  I have helped to before, but obviously I am not doing so well on my own.  Plus, Talon, arguments such as these allow a neutral person to see our arguments and if they wish, choose their own side or come up with their own beliefs.  They are not useless in any sense, plus, it makes a person think and reevaluate how they wish to argue their point and what examples they want to use to convince a given person.
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 15, 2004 02:42:52 PM     View the profile of Sniping101 
and if nothing else its good practice
 
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Vukan
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 15, 2004 11:38:36 PM     View the profile of Vukan 
And I just read Art's post about CNN being a propoganda tool.  Well, I am sorry, but you are a fool.  CNN and most major media stations excepting Fox and Clear Channel are liberal.  They don't strive to report good things about Bush, so if anything, you will get the truth out of them about what the Administration is doing about filling jobs.

And if CNN COULD be a propoganda tool, how do you know wherever you got your information from wasn't wrong?  Did you go out and see who was without a job?  No.  You don't even live here, so how would you have a clue as to what it's like.  And this isn't directed at anyone but arturus, and I am sure someone who lives in the US would have a better idea about what is going on (not necessarily me, but Fury or someone else that is up-to-date with politics and figures).
 
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"And he smote them hip and thigh with a great slaughter: and he went down and dwelt in the top of the rock Etam." -Judges 15:8
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 17, 2004 01:06:21 AM     View the profile of JMac 
Why was this topic exhumed?

Tal, my ego doesn't need a boost, I just like arguing, so here goes...


Japan-I think that we were right to drop the bomb, because in the end it saved a lot more lives then it ended.  That aaid, the choice of a target was not right.  I've never supported killing civilians in battle, we should have hit them in a target with actual military value, not just a city that woulkd scare them. 

We did not go into Iraq to take over the country, as we are giving it back to the Iraqis just as soon as we can.  We hit them because Saddam in power was a threat to our country.  Hewas seriously diusturbed, hated our country, and was working on developing WMDs.  The point isn't to attack everyone with WMDs, just to keep them away from people that would use them on us.

Of course the economy is down.  Bush took over in the middle of a recession, and soon afterwards our Trade Towers were taken down and a bunch of economic scandals sent the stock market into a tailspin.  It is surprising that we've already had the recovery that we did. 

Lesse, what else.  How can you say that CNN is spreading propoganda for Bush?  They hate him there, if you look at their staff you will find that the majority of them actually worked in Democrat campaign teams.  ANd does anyone else find it funny that no-one local is covering Kerry's recent affair with a girl that just graduated from high school.  If it was Bush, it would be all over the news.

My rant is done now.  Enjoy.
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 17, 2004 01:40:32 AM     View the profile of Vukan 
Wow...I can safely say I agree with everything Fury just said.  Wow...
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 17, 2004 06:27:27 AM     View the profile of JMac 
Fury's last post was a week ago.  Why are you saying this now?
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 17, 2004 03:09:40 PM     View the profile of Talon 
Vukan skims before he posts. He just now got around to reading back through everything. ;P
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 17, 2004 03:52:52 PM     View the profile of Sniping101 
ya, ok, technically we gave the countryback to the iraqis, but think about it, we set up their government the way we wanted it and anybody with WMD are a potential threat, we cant predict whats in the future, whos to say Saddam would've used them for anything other than scaring us? i think hw has a right to hate america. hell i wont even work for most englishmen when they come over here because most of them (all of the ones i wont work for) think their so [Edit] better than us. so ya he has a right to hate america.

and the part about CNN being a propaganda staion dosent mean its propaganda for bush or even blatant propaganda, it may be more subtle than that.

i wont go into conspirancy theories here, i'll just stop here and wish this thread had been locked in the beginning.

and i also think i should make something clear: i do beleave citys and civilins have a military value: however i do not condone starting wars though, i believe in taking the offensive if you are attacked, but i dont believe it is neccessay to start a war, there are better ways to solve the problem than war. war is a waste of time, money and life. i dont know, maybe im a fool.
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 18, 2004 12:42:07 AM     View the profile of JMac 
I don't think that this should be locked, but why isn't it in the lounge?
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 18, 2004 01:04:31 AM     View the profile of chipmunk man 
Um, again I ask: didn't anybody else hear about how Saddam helped Timothy McViegh (or however you spell his name)? That's right folks, NPR actually dug up evidence that their really was a conspiracy in the Oklahoma City Bombing, and Saddam was in on it. He gave Tim money and two goons to help with the technical stuff. That consitutes direct assistance in a terrorist attack. Now think on this: if he helped with that, what more was he planning? Chem weapons? Bio attacks? Or even a primitive nuke? My point is, Saddam helped to attack America, and was probably in the stages of planning somethibigger.

You may be asking this: why didn't we hear more about this Oklahoma City thing? The answer is this: CNN, along with the rest of the libral-controlled-media, hates Bush. That it was reported on NPR at all suprises me. That CNN would actually go and say something good about Bush creating jobs has me nearly reeling.

I also want to reiterate that we did not invade Iraq for oil or any such thing. That  has been fairly well proven by the fact that the oil fields have been turned back over to the Iraqi's. And while I cannot speak for the rest of the US, I know that gas prices in my town have been soaring to stupidly high levels. So no, we have not been flooded by cheap Iraqi oil, because that is not the reason we invaded.
 
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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstien

"There is a certain kind of peace that can be found only on the other side of war." -Sean Connery as King Arthur in "First Knight."

"People like you are the reason people like me take medication." -Cool T-shirt

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Vukan
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 18, 2004 01:52:06 AM     View the profile of Vukan 
Erm, I saw a four lettered name and I thought Fury.

EVERYONE, I DO NOT AGREE WITH FURY.  Sheesh, I was wondering what happened to Fury over the weekend :-p

EVERYONE, I DO AGREE WITH JMAC.  *gives JMac a hug* I love you baby, and if it's quite alright, I need you baby...
 
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FM/Leading Crewman Vukan/Kaph 2-3/Phoenix Wing/mSSD Atrus/Defensive Fleet/VEN/VE

"And he smote them hip and thigh with a great slaughter: and he went down and dwelt in the top of the rock Etam." -Judges 15:8
chipmunk man
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 18, 2004 06:58:21 AM     View the profile of chipmunk man 
I do hope that Vukan is a girl...

If not, then, well, I pity JMac beyond very much...

/me shudders.
 
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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstien

"There is a certain kind of peace that can be found only on the other side of war." -Sean Connery as King Arthur in "First Knight."

"People like you are the reason people like me take medication." -Cool T-shirt

FL/PO2 Chipmunk Man/Kaph 3-1/Phoenix/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)[LoC][MC:1]
Fury
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 18, 2004 08:13:24 AM     View the profile of Fury 
A couple thoughts.

One, I'm glad Vukan doesn't agree with me.  I feel bad for JMac though as we're often judged by the company we keep and I figured he ran with a smarter crowd.

Two, Bush by his own admission suggests that, "The recession started upon my arrival. It could have been?some say February, some say March, some speculate maybe earlier it started?but nevertheless, it happened as we showed up here." That's from the Meet the Press interview.  Which, yes, means he's trying to pass the blame for inheriting it, but definitely does not mean he came in the "middle" of it.  There was time to address things and whether or not he did so adequately is subjective given 9/11. 

Three, I wish I could so simply cast my vote for a guy on whether or not he's faithful to his wife or not.  I don't.  I actually worry about issues figuring, correctly I think, that someone's family life is none of my damn business.  Otherwise, how do you defend supporting an alcoholic, drug abusing, military duty dodging bigot for president?  Because he didn't cheat on his wife that we know of?  Wow, such high standards you have there.

As for this weekend, I had an excellent time with my wife enjoying nature and each other's company instead of listening to the whining of purile teenagers whose balls haven't even dropped.  So piss off Vukan.
 
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PRF/GEN Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [SCP][PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
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Fury
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
February 18, 2004 08:18:25 AM     View the profile of Fury 
Before anyone starts in on me on whether or not Bush avoided military duty, forget everything else and explain to me why he absolutely needed to be away from his consentual signed military obligation for eight months, the eight months at the end he was allowed to forfeit.  He was in college for god's sake.  Many, many people do drill while in grad school, even doctoral programs.  So, yeah, if even the rest of the situation gets explained away (and I sincerely doubt it), that will always look bad.  So put the soapboxes away.

Also, Drudge got it wrong.  There was no infidelity, just the conservative mud slinging poster boy misquoting people as usual.  That said, no infidelity that we can prove.  All politicians are by some measure sleazier than that rest of us. It wouldn't surprise me and wouldn't change my mind about any issues.
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[This message has been edited by Fury (edited February 18, 2004 09:02:55 AM )]
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