Communications Network
Vast Empire  -  New Posts  -  Search  -  Statistics  -  Login 
 
ComNet > Neutral Messages > Archived Main ComNet > Before you make any "political" statements...
 
 
  Pages:  [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >> ]   
Author
Topic:  Before you make any "political" statements...
Argon Viper
ComNet Expert
 
[VE-ARMY] Sergeant Major
[VE-VEEC] Senior Writer
 
Post Number:  1789
Total Posts:  1789
Joined:  Apr 2001
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 2, 2004 07:40:06 AM     View the profile of Argon Viper 
No, it actually sounds quite like something the North Korean rulership would say.  In fact, I'm sure every government on Earth would rewrite history (and in fact several have.  when was the last time you heard about the concentration camps we shoved the Japanese into during WWII?), but luckily most of them have too much of a free press to do so.  North Korea controls the press, and so they can do what they like, and in this case, they like making us out to be the evil ones.
 
-----------------------
Argon Viper
Sergeant Major/Senior Writer, VE Today
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
Fallen Angel and Proud of It!
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
Arturus
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Ensign (ESN)
 
Post Number:  887
Total Posts:  2143
Joined:  Nov 2001
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 2, 2004 10:30:29 AM     View the profile of Arturus 
While it is definitely not a concentration camp, I thought Id point out something

Guantanamo Bay

This prison of war camp...Im sorry...prison for "illegal combatants" (a term that is a crock) violates international law and treaties and violates human rights.  Also these prisoners are prisoners of war so the Geneva Conventions should be followed...something I believe the US stated strongly during WWII.  Funny how countries chose to believe in a treaty only when it suits them.
 
-----------------------
SL/ESN_Arturus/Kaph 1-1/Phoenix Wing/M-SSD_Atrus/VE/VEN/(=a=)(=sa=)(=jcpa=)(=scpa=)[MC:1][SV][BRC][LoC]
-----
No...I expect to leave on some beach with absolutely no name at all while I sail away on my ship...and then Ill shout the name back to you...savvy?
chipmunk man
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  930
Total Posts:  2064
Joined:  Oct 2002
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 2, 2004 11:10:59 AM     View the profile of chipmunk man 
So Arturus, what country do the terrorists fight for? Do they swear alegiance to Russia? Libya? Or maybe Brazil?

My point is that they cannot be considered "prisoners of war" unless they belong to a legitimate army. Al Quida is not. It is instead a bunch of crack pot fanatics who like to kill Americans.
 
-----------------------
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstien

"There is a certain kind of peace that can be found only on the other side of war." -Sean Connery as King Arthur in "First Knight."

"People like you are the reason people like me take medication." -Cool T-shirt

FL/PO2 Chipmunk Man/Kaph 3-1/Phoenix/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)[LoC][MC:1]
Argon Viper
ComNet Expert
 
[VE-ARMY] Sergeant Major
[VE-VEEC] Senior Writer
 
Post Number:  1789
Total Posts:  1789
Joined:  Apr 2001
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 2, 2004 01:16:07 PM     View the profile of Argon Viper 
By that argument, you could make the case that every person in the North Korean army is a "crackpot who wants to kill Americans".  I mean, we don't actually recognize them as a country or anything.  Heck, why not Cubans as well?  Wait, there are four Britons (I believe) still in Guantanamo, but who cares about their nationality, they're still "crackpots who want to kill Americans". 

The point I'm trying to make here is that terrorism or lack thereof should not be the standard to which we hold everyone and everything.  If we do that, we're starting our slide toward a police state, where everyone can be arrested and have it justified with just one word.

We are a moral power in the world, whether we like it or not, and the way in which we treat our enemies can either help them or hurt them.  If we treat them with disrespect, spit on their culture, fire on their families, throw them into legal limbo just because we can, of course they're going to hate us, can you name a reason for them to like us?

If we treat them as humans, with basic rights, and win our cases through the law like we're supposed to, we become better than them, and winning that kind of support is the only way we're going to actually end the threat to us.
 
-----------------------
Argon Viper
Sergeant Major/Senior Writer, VE Today
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
Fallen Angel and Proud of It!
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
Fury
ComNet Overlord
 
[VE-ARMY] High General
[VE-VEHC] High General*
 
Post Number:  1578
Total Posts:  2684
Joined:  Jun 2000
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 2, 2004 05:34:01 PM     View the profile of Fury 
I'm in the middle on this.  Psychos with weapons and some construed motive to kill us can be rounded up and thrown into the Marianas Trench for all I care.  If someone wants me dead, I don't really concern myself with their nationality.  They set the rules for "kill or be killed" and shouldn't whine when they just end up in chains in the Caribbean. Seriously, there are a lot of worse situations to be in.

However....if a nation wants to lay claim to any of their misguided citizens locked up at Gitmo, I say they are welcome to them.  We let that idiot Lindh into the US when he really should be getting bitch-slapped daily in a Camp X-Ray cell; so where do we get off telling the Aussies and Brits where to go when they ask about their citizens?

As for supposed violations of human rights laws, I don't remember any Middle Eastern country: a) declaring war on us, or b) worrying too much about any of their misguided children.  I have observed that the only people who haven't written off these punks as failed human experiments are some of the very people they'd love to rip the windpipe out of.  Namely, people like you Art and Argon.  While you have good idealist points, this obviously did not set a precedent for how we treat prisoners-of-war, just those individuals (not nations or recognized organizations - individuals) who like committing suicide in the midst of dozens of their closest enemies.  Consider it a really retro suicide watch program if it helps you get to bed at night.

As for whether or not the State Department wants to recognize North Korea, the CIA does.  Let me know when you find an Al-Qaedaland in the Factbook.
  -----------------------
PRF/GEN Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [SCP][PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
Prefect - Stormtrooper Corps
Administrator - Imperial Center
[This message has been edited by Fury (edited March 2, 2004 05:45:37 PM )]
JMac
ComNet Veteran
 
[VE-DJO] Dark Jedi Knight (DJK)
[VE-NAVY] Lt. Commander (LCM)
 
Post Number:  1029
Total Posts:  1216
Joined:  Nov 2001
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 01:01:43 AM     View the profile of JMac 
Holy four eyed flying monkeys, I actually agree with Fury!!!  This hasn't happened in so long, I don't know what to do, what to say!

Actually, that isn't true, I am very rarely at a loss for words.  I have two things.  First of all, how can you say that we shouldn't fire on their families.  Last time that we targeted civilians was when we dropped the bomb in WWII.  In fact, we have been going out of our way and risking our soldier's lives specifically so we won't hurt civilians. 

Secondly, the last time that I heard of the Japanese Camps was the last time I studied World War II in history class.  Try looking at your textbook, mine had a very large section on it.
 
-----------------------
LCM_ JMac/(=A=)(=SA=)(=MA)(=FOCE=)(MC1)(VC)

Viva el gato mojado!!!!

As a great man once said, here, is where you are.
chipmunk man
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  930
Total Posts:  2064
Joined:  Oct 2002
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 01:40:40 AM     View the profile of chipmunk man 
I have a simple question for you Art. If Osama bin Laden (okay, this is hypothetical here) were to walk up to you with a gun and say "I'm gonna kill you, infidel!" would you:

A) Cry, "Oh no, let's have a peace talk!"
or B) Pull your own gun and defend yourself.

Al Quieda doesn't care whether we bother them first. I don't recall us invading Afghanistan before 9/11. They believe that they will get into their own version of Heaven simply by killing those that they deem "infidels." And that means Americans. Either we kill Osama's little minnions first, or there's going to be another 9/11. Look at it this way: we didn't retaliate after the WTC bombing in the early '90's. We didn't retaliate after the USS Cole. Al Quida saw that, and became bolder. Now thousands of our people are dead, and it's time to put the fear of God in these people before they up their attacks even more. Leave them alone again and it will only get worse.
 
-----------------------
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstien

"There is a certain kind of peace that can be found only on the other side of war." -Sean Connery as King Arthur in "First Knight."

"People like you are the reason people like me take medication." -Cool T-shirt

FL/PO2 Chipmunk Man/Kaph 3-1/Phoenix/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)[LoC][MC:1]
Shazam
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  650
Total Posts:  4197
Joined:  Jun 2003
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 02:02:59 AM     View the profile of Shazam 
    I wonder... 
    *Forms his hand into a gun...  Walks up to the nearest person.
    "Freeze!" I say in my darkest voice.  "Slowly turn.  Now where you want it?  In your head, or in your leg?"
 
-----------------------
*Flash Was Here...*
My Real Bebop: (=A=)
Squall
ComNet Novice
 
[VE-ARMY] Private First Class
 
Post Number:  91
Total Posts:  635
Joined:  Feb 2004
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 07:18:14 AM     View the profile of Squall 


  Well, the peace talks that America are currently trying, are doing anything for us.  Either the peace talks work out, or the Peace talk doesnt.

  If the peace talks actually do work out, something has to go wrong within the next 5 years of the meeting.  Something with mass destructive weapons, or some freak suicide bomber blows up the embassy, and they blame it on us.  I don't know why we even try the peace talks with other countries.

  George Washington said something very important when he left the government.  He said that we were not to communicate with other countries, or we would be bound for death.  I believe the words that he said, and they are one day going to come true.

  With Korea, Iraq, Iran, Isreal, and all of those other countries, there is going to be a world war.  Korea, with their high tech Nuclear Weapons, Iran, not trusting anyone, and doing what they feel will benefit for them.  Isreal, with their suicide bombers, and peole dieing in malls every 5 seconds.  The world itself is going to go into a big Nuclear War, and we won't be ready for it.  When the day comes, we are never going to expect it.  I dont believe it will happen in the next 5 years though.  The terrorists still have lots of planning on their hands.

  In a final word, I assure all of you that one day this will happen.  And if it does, we are going to be crushed, because our army is not even close to being ready for one of these kinds of attacks. 

  "Paul Harvey, Good Day"
 
-----------------------
|Vast Empire Army|
[Private First Class] [LoR]
Laguna "Squall" Lionheart
Drill Squadron
chipmunk man
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  930
Total Posts:  2064
Joined:  Oct 2002
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 08:17:46 AM     View the profile of chipmunk man 
No no, talking to other countries is critical to preventing a nuclear war. That is why we are talking to North Korea. I know I've said some things pro-war, but peace is good. I just feel that you have to flex your muscles and protect yourself from time to time. Osama and Saddam being perfect examples. Look at WWII. America played isolationist, and all we did was allow an evil maniac (Hitler) to violate restrictive treaties and take over most of Europe. That was a very hard lesson, and I think we learned something from it (or at least should have). That is why we tore Saddam a new hole in 1991 when he tried to take Kuwait.

A combination of preventitive measures and peace talks are necessary. I guess the hard part is deciding when to use which.
 
-----------------------
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstien

"There is a certain kind of peace that can be found only on the other side of war." -Sean Connery as King Arthur in "First Knight."

"People like you are the reason people like me take medication." -Cool T-shirt

FL/PO2 Chipmunk Man/Kaph 3-1/Phoenix/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)[LoC][MC:1]
Shazam
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  650
Total Posts:  4197
Joined:  Jun 2003
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 08:20:04 AM     View the profile of Shazam 
"George Washington said something very important when he left the government.  He said that we were not to communicate with other countries, or we would be bound for death.  I believe the words that he said, and they are one day going to come true."  -Squall...

Did he really say that?  I beleive he said to stay nuetral, but I don't think he said anything about breaking off complete communications with other countries.  Plus that wouldn't make sense since they were trading with England and all kinds of different countries...
    I believe he also said to stay away from parties as well...  We certainly didn't listen to that one either though did we?
 
-----------------------
*Flash Was Here...*
My Real Bebop: (=A=)
Shazam
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  650
Total Posts:  4197
Joined:  Jun 2003
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 08:24:00 AM     View the profile of Shazam 
  Lol...  Chip posted just before I did.  Just thought I'd comment...
    We didn't really stand by as much we were trying to stay out of it.  The Nazi's broke the treaty of Versai is all.  The UN- or at that time it was called something else...  Can't quite remember...  But anyways, they were the ones letting it happen.  It sounds like I'm blaming someone, but get this.  In one Hitlers journals er something like that, it actually said that if the...  Oh yea.  It was called the leage of Nations or something...  It said if the LoN would have told him to go back or they'd send their armys, Hitler would have turned his hind end out of Poland.  But of course.  The LoN was just as useful as the UN today...
 
-----------------------
*Flash Was Here...*
My Real Bebop: (=A=)
chipmunk man
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  930
Total Posts:  2064
Joined:  Oct 2002
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 08:36:18 AM     View the profile of chipmunk man 
Ah yes, the League of Nations. A creation of Woodrow Wilson after WWI. It failed because America, in the midst of isolationism, refused to join, even though we founded the thing. Hitler was warned many times to stop invading. But instead of sending armies, Europe tried to use appeasement policies. They let Hitler keep little bits of other countries if he promised to stop invading. He would agree, take the offered land, then invade some more. Again Europe tried to appease him, and he would pull wool over their eyes. Things snowballed until countries like Britain actually went through with their threats and declared war.

So in 1991 when Saddam invaded Kuwait, the UN snipped it at the bud and bombed the bejezzus out of Iraq. Heh, gotta give 'em credit for that one. Only problem was, ol' Bush Senior didn't finish the job he started, leaving the problem to ferment. Saddam retaliated by helping Tim McViegh (supposedly, according to an NPR report) in the Oklahoma City Bombing of 1996 (right date?). And I have few doubts that he was in bed with Osama.
 
-----------------------
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstien

"There is a certain kind of peace that can be found only on the other side of war." -Sean Connery as King Arthur in "First Knight."

"People like you are the reason people like me take medication." -Cool T-shirt

FL/PO2 Chipmunk Man/Kaph 3-1/Phoenix/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)[LoC][MC:1]
Shazam
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  650
Total Posts:  4197
Joined:  Jun 2003
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 08:59:25 AM     View the profile of Shazam 
*Gives golfer's clap...

    Nicely done...  I suppose this is where I start talking because I know nothing about the Oklahoma city bombing and I know thats where the topic is moving to next...
 
-----------------------
*Flash Was Here...*
My Real Bebop: (=A=)
Rema
ComNet Member
 
[VE-ARMY] Sergeant
 
Post Number:  858
Total Posts:  1056
Joined:  Oct 2003
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 09:10:24 AM     View the profile of Rema 
Lets not move it there shall we?

I attempted to stay out of this mess but have failed somewhat. Just to make it clear for everyone Saddam and Osama dont mix. They would never help the same thing unless it was them both pressing a buttom to blow up the world. Very simple.
 
-----------------------
+ Advance Recon Commandos {ARC} +
"Only Trust your Allies as much as you can Predict your Enemies."
"Do you expect me to talk?" "No Mr. Bond, i expect you to die."
"Luke, I am your Fasha."
To Nom Anor, a truly superior Yuuzhan Vong.
TRP/CPL Rema/2SQD/2PLT/1COM/1BAT/1RGT/VEA/VE [LoR][OPE] [AM-B][AM-S][AM-P][IH][SoA]
Argon Viper
ComNet Expert
 
[VE-ARMY] Sergeant Major
[VE-VEEC] Senior Writer
 
Post Number:  1789
Total Posts:  1789
Joined:  Apr 2001
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 09:46:19 AM     View the profile of Argon Viper 
Okay, the next time I hear someone say that Saddam and Osama were in league I'm going to just stop talking to them...  If you listened to anything Osama has said (which I suggest you do sometime...), he hated Saddam about as much as we did.  Even the one where he told Iraqis to resist the US invasion, the only good thing he said about Saddam was that "even the devil Saddam is not as bad as the American Satan" or something to that effect.  Anyways, hopefully I can stop hearing that argument at least on this forum.

Anyways, the fact is that no member of Al-Qaeda has come to my house with a gun, and if he did, I would certainly do my best to stop him.  However, what I'm arguing is an entirely different scenario.  In this one, I've got the guy bound and gagged on the floor, and I've taken away his gun.  Now, do I kick him repeatedly or do I hand him over to the authorities so real justice can be done?

Obviously my choice should be the second, while the US chooses the first.  Face it, the guys in Guantanomo Bay may be terrorists, but they have no more capacity of killing you at the moment than a 40 year old beggar 100 miles from where you live.  Now, the choice revolves around one or two things.  You can either keep them there for eternity, trying them in military tribunals in secret, and never let anyone know about it.  This approach may sound best to some "vengeance for 9/11" mentality, but it actually hurts us.

In order for true justice to be delivered, we have to have a public trail, with real evidence presented, showing these guys for what they are, monstrous deeds and all.  Our civilization was not built around the principle that you could be locked away secretly for the rest of your life, in fact that's the very thing we have always opposed.

Now, the only reason I can see not to put them on public trial is if you don't honestly think you can convict them.  This "classified evidence" thing doesn't fly with me, because I'm quite sure there's more than enough declassified stuff to get them life or death.  Now, if we can't actually convict them, then what are we holding them for?  "accused-of-terrorism"?

Go outside sometime and try to get someone put away for life just by randomly accusing them of murder.  If that's the type of society you're advocating, then I will do my level best to make sure you never take any kind of reigns of power.

I love this country as much as you do, and more importantly, I love what it stands for.  The freedom to do things and know why they are done is fundamental to our way of life, and I'll argue to the last breath against anyone who wants to make it otherwise.

I hope you enjoyed this rant 
 
-----------------------
Argon Viper
Sergeant Major/Senior Writer, VE Today
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
Fallen Angel and Proud of It!
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
Kuroishi
ComNet Member
 
[VE-ARMY] Sergeant First Class
 
Post Number:  589
Total Posts:  948
Joined:  Apr 2001
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 10:06:24 AM     View the profile of Kuroishi 
It's easy for us americans sitting here in relative safety and comfort to forget that the rest of the world does not see things the way we do.

It's also easy for us to think our way is the best way and everyone should follow it.

To a true fanatic surrender and negotiation are useless.  That's why I consider myself a realistic pacifist, sometimes words and sanctions are not going to stop someone.

As far as totaly cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world, that is impracticle and nigh imposible.

Is isolationism a way to go?  Yes it is a posibility but if all we ever hear about is the things going on in our own country and never recieve any outside trade things will get rather interesting very quickly.

From what I've hear the prisoners in Quantanamo are actually living better lives then when they did before going there for the most part.  I can't say how true that is but I've heard that somewhere before.

"History is only recorded in two places and both can be altered."-Can't remember who said it but they are correct.

"History is written by the victor."-Another one I can't remember who said it but I find to be very accurate.

If you take a close look between the not nazi for of fascism(with how it was explained to me it is one of the few forms of government that I could support) you'd be suprised how close our government is to it.

"Terrorism is not just a middle east problem."-Well I think you all get the drift.

We have militias and organizations in America that would like to see things go boom and are not neccessarily funded or aided in any way by Osama or Saddam or even any other middle east group.

There that should be all of it.
 
-----------------------
Kuroishi Wraith VEA
Daishi Raptor VEN
Assistant Writer Why Project Copyright Infringment
Ich bin hessliche amerikaner.
Nehmen mir zu dein frauen von vernunftig preis tugendhafte.
"And the sound of many heads hitting many solid objects was heard throughout the land." me
Raziel
ComNet Member
 
[VE-ARMY] Sergeant Major
[VE-DJO] Dark Jedi Knight (DJK)
 
Post Number:  864
Total Posts:  2873
Joined:  Feb 2001
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 11:27:52 AM     View the profile of Raziel 
*Reads Squall's post

I'm not even going to start on that, but if i did it would start with several censored words
 
-----------------------
+ Advance Recon Commandos {ARC} +
SL/SGMTRaziel/4SQD/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/ {EW1} {WoS} {VP} {IG} {CDS} {BoA}
Assistant Squad Leader - Squad4 Wraiths
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.
Shazam
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  650
Total Posts:  4197
Joined:  Jun 2003
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 11:52:17 AM     View the profile of Shazam 
Seriously, somebody delete this post...
 
-----------------------
*Flash Was Here...*
My Real Bebop: (=A=)
Fury
ComNet Overlord
 
[VE-ARMY] High General
[VE-VEHC] High General*
 
Post Number:  1578
Total Posts:  2684
Joined:  Jun 2000
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 12:35:10 PM     View the profile of Fury 
Let me start with the obvious majority opinions.

1. We for the most part agree that open communications with other nations is a good thing. We disagree on treaties.

2. We disagree on what to do with people other nations don't want to claim. 

Personally, any of those punks currently locked up is one less person trying to ram a plane into my city or take a pot shot at my brother in the Middle East.  I'm all for putting them in a deep dark hole.  The second some country wants to claim them as their citizen, we can talk turkey. Others feel differently and have done a good job expressing that opinion.

Point is: agree to disagree without trying to yell out the other side.

3. We've all pretty much agreed that outrageous statements and inaccurate quotes are the symbol of someone pushing their issue too hard.  Kindly respect the rest of our collective intelligences and do not use profanity, do remember to quote directly and in context, and do not make useless "kill 'em all" type statements.

4. JMac, I'm just as weirded out as you. There's hope for common ground yet.
  -----------------------
PRF/GEN Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [SCP][PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
Prefect - Stormtrooper Corps
Administrator - Imperial Center
[This message has been edited by Fury (edited March 3, 2004 12:37:39 PM )]
Shazam
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  650
Total Posts:  4197
Joined:  Jun 2003
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 01:17:05 PM     View the profile of Shazam 
*That last one touched me in a way I can't put into words..

I gotta stop these sensles post...  Someone bring up another point to argue about...  Like...  Hrm.  Well...  I can't really think of anything right now.  I'll get one though...
 
-----------------------
*Flash Was Here...*
My Real Bebop: (=A=)
Argon Viper
ComNet Expert
 
[VE-ARMY] Sergeant Major
[VE-VEEC] Senior Writer
 
Post Number:  1789
Total Posts:  1789
Joined:  Apr 2001
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 3, 2004 01:54:25 PM     View the profile of Argon Viper 
Okay, I put up the Jurassic Park theme this time, so I should be relatively more relaxed 

Anyways, I'd like to take a moment to discuss some debating styles here.  First off mine.

I like to start with an analogy, something which compares politics to a one on one situation with varying degrees of accuracy.  Then, I lead that into a sub-point, something which everyone of a Judeo-Christian moral background can usually agree on.  Then I follow with more sub-points, each one perfectly agreeable by way of the fact that you agreed to the one before it.  Eventually I end up where I wanted to go, ending it in such a way that, if you agreed to everything up to it, you have to agree with it.  The primary flaw of this method is that not everyone seems to see violence as something to be avoided, which I do.  This means that they are likely to get lost on some of my sub-points, which means they won't necessarily agree with my main point.

Another method I've seen is to simply state the main point outright at the beginning of the post, and then proceed to lay out evidence for the rest of the post.  The downside to this one is that the statement of the main point at the beginning may prejudice readers to the evidence presented, muting the impact of the main point itself.  I've noticed this reaction many times both in myself and others.

Yet another method is to lay out all the evidence first, and then lay out a main point.  This method suffers from the downside that someone has to read the evidence without any idea of what it's supposed to mean, and may be quite likely not to have it add up to the same thing the writer thinks it does.

The final method is the one we all deplore, random quotes, historical "facts" (factual or not), and opinions.  These suffer from the downside that they leave the reader doubting the intelligence, and therefore the opinion, of the writer.  This is perhaps the least effective method of debating on this kind of a forum, and I've noticed that even people who tend to agree with the kind of opinions put forth find disagreement with them.

Anyways, these are the main styles I've seen so far.  I hope this relative assessment of them is helpful in producing more pursuasive debate posts in the future (all we seem to do these days is state our opinions over and over again).  Perhaps one day we can even convince someone of something 
 
-----------------------
Argon Viper
Sergeant Major/Senior Writer, VE Today
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
Fallen Angel and Proud of It!
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
chipmunk man
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  930
Total Posts:  2064
Joined:  Oct 2002
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 4, 2004 01:00:11 AM     View the profile of chipmunk man 
As for prisoner conditions in the so-called "concentration camp," I saw a political cartoon in the local paper a while back. It had several terorist prisoners in their cells talking about their living conditions. "Bad food," "Poor shelter," "Brutal discipline..." "Yeah, I hope the Americans don't send us back..."


And yes, their are American-based terrorist organizations. Just a little while ago the Earth Liberation Front burned a massive apartment complex simply because it was made of wood, and I think it killed 200 or 300 people. That's what I heard anyway. But they're no better than Al Quida. They just became terrorists for different reasons. But their still terrorists, and they still deserve the death penalty. Which is another subject I support but won't touch on right now.
 
-----------------------
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstien

"There is a certain kind of peace that can be found only on the other side of war." -Sean Connery as King Arthur in "First Knight."

"People like you are the reason people like me take medication." -Cool T-shirt

FL/PO2 Chipmunk Man/Kaph 3-1/Phoenix/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)[LoC][MC:1]
Argon Viper
ComNet Expert
 
[VE-ARMY] Sergeant Major
[VE-VEEC] Senior Writer
 
Post Number:  1789
Total Posts:  1789
Joined:  Apr 2001
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 4, 2004 04:09:27 AM     View the profile of Argon Viper 
Hmmm, I'm amazed that people can look at what small organizations do as terrorism, but when the government rounds up well over 1000 muslims for no other reason than the fact that they're muslim, no one bats an eye.  Keep in mind, they were rounded up very shortly after 9/11, and are still in prison.  Personally, I fear state sponsored terrorism more than the hyped up type.
 
-----------------------
Argon Viper
Sergeant Major/Senior Writer, VE Today
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
Fallen Angel and Proud of It!
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
Arturus
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Ensign (ESN)
 
Post Number:  887
Total Posts:  2143
Joined:  Nov 2001
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 4, 2004 07:33:48 AM     View the profile of Arturus 
Argon thanks for saying everything I believe for me...you and I definitely think alike on these issues.

Let me just make a couple of very quick points about some things Ive seen, no time for a long informative rant at the moment.

1. Dont make claims you cant back up people, I sincerely doubt Saddam Hussein sponsored the Oaklohoma City bombing.  Good luck proving otherwise but I sense you are wasting your time.  Another point about the bombing is that there are questions popping up as to whether or not McVeigh was truly guilty.  There are definitely some things that need explaining and apparently the FBI didnt follow correct procedure.  When I get a minute Ill find these articles and paste them here for you to take a look at.

2. Chipmunk, Id love to hear how you can justify executing the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, especially without any released evidence.  I agree with Argon, "classified" evidence is a load of crap.  Without real substantial evidence and due process, to execute or even continue to detain these men is a violation of human rights, international law, international treaties, and violates the US beliefs of the fairness of law, equality under the law, and the belief in rapid and due process.  No one has claimed some of these prisoners, the US should be actively communicating with countries on this note, not just holding them indefinitely and without charge.

3. If you have a point, make a point.  If you dont then dont.  Doom and loom rants about a nuclear war coming and the end of the world are not only ignorant, wild predictions...they are also completely without proof.  Also, what difference would it make how big and ready the US army is, they couldnt stop a nuclear attack so your subtle attack on the lack of military spending in the US is rather flawed.  Incidentally I figured I should point out that the US has one of thelargest militaries in the world and that Bush somehow feels he can cut social programs and cut taxes, and yet increase military spending by 7%.  Remind me how decripid social programs are in the US not to mention the ridiculous defecit the country is running.  One final point...dont blame Clinton for the economy, as much as Bush says he inherited a slumping economy that isnt true.  Also one final note on economic policy, I think Allen Greenspan is starting to lose it a bit, I dont quite understand his monetary policy.  The US dollar up until recently has plummeted while the US economy has begun to recover to normal growth rates (save jobs which dont seem to be increasing any time soon).  A poor US dollar hurts auto manufactures since most America auto companies important several components to make cars (many of these coming from Canada and from Asia).  Western economies to this day rely heavily on the auto industry, its still a massive part of any economy.  If there is a lack of jobs in the US and a plummeting dollar which continues to hurt auto makers, would the smart thing not be to raise interest rates above the absurd level of 1%?

4. Argon, well done about your statements in regards to the lack of connection between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.  What sense would it make for an Islamic Fundamentalist to support a secular Stalinist leader?

5. Iran trusts other nations...just not nations you might.  Syria comes to mind.

6. North Korea has a nuclear weapons program, whether or not Id call it high tech is debatable.  They certainly are not as advanced as the US, they have many years to go still.

7. Another comment about nuclear weapons and the doom and gloom post, I do agree that Israel having nuclear weapons is a threat.  Israel's current policies gravely threaten Middle East stability (or what constitutes stability in the region).  Their isolationist war mongering policies combined with human rights abuses have helped to worsen the situation and drive more people to becoming suicide bombers.  If I was a Palestinian, I wouldnt support suicide bombing would I would support any form of revolt, disruption, protest, march, riot that would make life tough for Israel.  Let me make it clear I am NOT in anyway shape or form promoting violence.  I deplore violence as a means for causing change and revolution.  I prefer the Martin Luther King/Ghandi approach to that.  My point is though, I can easily sympathise with the Palestinian cause.  If one was to list the top 3 nations which pose a threat to world peace I would think that the following three would commonly find themselves on that list: Israel, North Korea, the United States.

8. I know I said this wasnt going to be a rant but it ended up being so.  Ill continue later and expand on my arguments.
 
-----------------------
SL/ESN_Arturus/Kaph 1-1/Phoenix Wing/M-SSD_Atrus/VE/VEN/(=a=)(=sa=)(=jcpa=)(=scpa=)[MC:1][SV][BRC][LoC]
-----
No...I expect to leave on some beach with absolutely no name at all while I sail away on my ship...and then Ill shout the name back to you...savvy?
chipmunk man
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  930
Total Posts:  2064
Joined:  Oct 2002
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 4, 2004 01:20:50 PM     View the profile of chipmunk man 
1: Did I say anything about doom and gloom? I don't recall it. I believe Squall was the one ranting about inevitability.

2: When it comes to the deficit, I think we need to undergo some serious wellfare reform.  Wellfare, when used properly, can be a great thing. But there are some many cases of lazy people abusing the system that it had become a drain and a waste. Slice off a chunk of the pork and add some regulations to prevent the abuse, and you'll find that the defict will shrink dramaticaly.

3: As for the Oklahoma City thing, all I know is what I heard on National Public Radio. My parents listen to that a lot, and so I occasionally pick up a few things. They stated that some reporter lady had found evidence that Saddam sent Tim money for materials and a pair of goons to help with the building work. The reporter turned the evidence over to the FBI, which supposedly covered it up on Clinton's orders so as to avoid an international incident. I consider that not only a danged good reason to beat the snot out of Saddam, but also a perfect case of your beloved Clinton betraying the nation (if it's true). I concede the fact that other than this report, which aired just before the invasion, I have little evidence. If you would like to know the radio station, it was 88.5 WXPN, which is a non-profit public channel supported by donations from local members.
 
-----------------------
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstien

"There is a certain kind of peace that can be found only on the other side of war." -Sean Connery as King Arthur in "First Knight."

"People like you are the reason people like me take medication." -Cool T-shirt

FL/PO2 Chipmunk Man/Kaph 3-1/Phoenix/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)[LoC][MC:1]
Arturus
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Ensign (ESN)
 
Post Number:  887
Total Posts:  2143
Joined:  Nov 2001
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 4, 2004 01:43:19 PM     View the profile of Arturus 
is this one of these far-right christian fundamentalist radio stations which are so prominant in the southern US?  If so you would do well not to believe much of anything that you hear on these stations.

I never said you made the doom and gloom comments.
 
-----------------------
SL/ESN_Arturus/Kaph 1-1/Phoenix Wing/M-SSD_Atrus/VE/VEN/(=a=)(=sa=)(=jcpa=)(=scpa=)[MC:1][SV][BRC][LoC]
-----
No...I expect to leave on some beach with absolutely no name at all while I sail away on my ship...and then Ill shout the name back to you...savvy?
Shazam
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  650
Total Posts:  4197
Joined:  Jun 2003
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 4, 2004 02:14:26 PM     View the profile of Shazam 
This is KGGI-  Come worship with us...
 
-----------------------
*Flash Was Here...*
My Real Bebop: (=A=)
Argon Viper
ComNet Expert
 
[VE-ARMY] Sergeant Major
[VE-VEEC] Senior Writer
 
Post Number:  1789
Total Posts:  1789
Joined:  Apr 2001
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 4, 2004 03:11:01 PM     View the profile of Argon Viper 
Lesse, where to start...

First off, I'd like to defend NPR.  NPR is public radio, and it broadcast across the entire country.  They are usually one of the most reliable sources for...  well, pretty much anything.  However, they do run stories with wide differing of opinions in them, which may explain where such a claim came from.  However, if it was a regular story from them, I'd probably have to say that they got it right until I actually hear the story itself.

Anyways, about the deficit...  Have you actually taken a look at Bush's tax cut?  60% of the benefits go to the "Upper-class".  To define the upper-class, it's basically the top 10% of Americans, give or take 2%.  Now, do these people actually need this tax cut?  Of course not, I know because my dad is one of them.  He lived quite well before the tax cut came in.

Now, another 25% of the benefits go to the "Middle-class", which basically constitues 70-80% of Americans.  Now this one is a mixed bag, some of them need it, and some of them don't.  However, most of them could use the help, even if they don't need it.

The other 15% of the benefits go to the "Lower-class", basically defined as "anyone without enough money/assets to be defined as middle or upper-class".  These people really do need it, no one I know can disprove that one.

As you can see, 60% of the Bush tax cut (estimated to be worth $1 trillion over the next decade) is completely unneeded.  If you doubt these figures, I advise you to look them up, they should be readily available to a search on the internet.

And now we come to the military...

The military is currently running on a budget of $400 billion.  Now, with a 1.5 million man strength, and considering that at least 1 million of that is enlisted, and that the maximum paycheck for an enlisted man (last I checked) is about $30,000 per year, that part of it adds up to 30 billion of those dollars.  The remaining half-million is mostly officers, making an average of probably $70,000 dollars a year, making that part of the costs $35 billion.

Now, I'm going to assume I underestimated that last part, and assume that $100 billion is actually spent on salaries.  Now, let's assume about $50 billion yearly for training (a number I think is probably vastly overestimated), about $100 yearly on equipment and maintainance, and probably $50 dollars yearly on secret projects.

Congratulations, we've accounted for $300 dollars of their budget!  Now, to the best of my knowledge, I can't think of anything that would combine together to make up for $100 billion dollars worth of this stuff.

And even then, what percentage of that troop force is actually useful?  I'd say about 50%, max.  Now, if we were to somehow force the military to "force up the beef" so to speak, I'd say we could save at least $100 billion dollars worth every year.  Not exactly chump change, that's about 20% of the deficit.

Now we come to welfare.  I agree that it's a bloated system, swallowing more money into itself than any benefits it gives, and that plenty of people abuse it.  But I blame that more on the fact that nobody cares to actually get down and fix it.

Seriously, our welfare system is completely worthless next to the welfare system of pretty much any industrialized nation, and we pay more for it than they do!

My opinion is that we need to beef up the system, but at the same time we need to go through and figure out where our money is going and fix it.  We could probably provide more benefits for less cost and pretty much everyone wins 

Anyways, that's my rant in reply to what's been said since last time I checked here.  I've seen some more thought being put into posts up here, and it's looking like this is going to be some good fun 
 
-----------------------
Argon Viper
Sergeant Major/Senior Writer, VE Today
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
Fallen Angel and Proud of It!
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
Shazam
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  650
Total Posts:  4197
Joined:  Jun 2003
Status:  Offline
  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
March 4, 2004 11:49:14 PM     View the profile of Shazam 
    Wasn't welfare part of one of our president's idea's or something...  Or was that some high executive guy who said," How about..."?
 
-----------------------
*Flash Was Here...*
My Real Bebop: (=A=)
ComNet > Neutral Messages > Archived Main ComNet > Before you make any "political" statements...  |  New Posts    
  Pages:  [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >> ]   

All times are EST. The time now is 03:25:02 PM
Comnet Jump:

Current Online Members - 0  |  Guests - 113  |  Bots - 2
 
< Contact Us - The Vast Empire >
 
Powered by ComNet Version 7.4
Copyright © 1998-2020 The Imperial Network
 
This page was generated in 2.214 seconds.