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Topic:  Before you make any "political" statements...
Afyon
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 4, 2004 9:42:23 AM    View the profile of Afyon 
How can you say they are being diminished when the US has created an excellent place for them to thrive.  Iraq is more dangerous now and the world is more dangerous now thanks to the US war.  Terrrorists can easily get into Iraq now, safe houses are easy to find, and they bring money and weapons with them.  TErrorism can thrive in Iraq now that Saddam Hussein is gone.

Also, those who carried out Sept 11, driven by hatred yes, but I dont beloieve they were blinded by it.  Think about it, the years of planning, coordination, training, research, reconnaisance just to be able to hijack 4 airliners within a shjort period of time and fly them into 3 out of 4 intendedtargets.  That is an incredible feat in tactical planning and preparation.  They are no dumbies and they have an exceptional grasp of planning and preparation.  Perhaps we need to recognise this.
 
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FlyingKnight
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 4, 2004 8:03:57 PM    View the profile of FlyingKnight 
All I have to say is in this picture and a website. Say whatever you want. I feel very strongly in the military.

Air Force

The picture looks terrible I guess I forgot to click on the Thumbnail logo...oops

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Lance Corporal
Frank "FlyingKnight" Carter
-Raider Squad
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TRP/LCPL FlyingKnight/3SQD/1PLT/COMP/1BAT/1RGT/VEA/VE [LoR]
"To start press the any key *Pause* where is the any key?"--Anonymous
[This message has been edited by Virius (edited June 4, 2004 8:05:27 PM)]
FlyingKnight
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 4, 2004 8:14:19 PM    View the profile of FlyingKnight 
Here is one of my other big favorites.
 
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Lance Corporal
Frank "FlyingKnight" Carter
-Raider Squad
-
TRP/LCPL FlyingKnight/3SQD/1PLT/COMP/1BAT/1RGT/VEA/VE [LoR]
"To start press the any key *Pause* where is the any key?"--Anonymous
FlyingKnight
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 4, 2004 8:15:28 PM    View the profile of FlyingKnight 

 
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Lance Corporal
Frank "FlyingKnight" Carter
-Raider Squad
-
TRP/LCPL FlyingKnight/3SQD/1PLT/COMP/1BAT/1RGT/VEA/VE [LoR]
"To start press the any key *Pause* where is the any key?"--Anonymous
Afyon
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 7, 2004 6:33:46 PM    View the profile of Afyon 
Im not anti-military.

I'm just against war.  Militaries should be used for peacekeeping.  The US has such an opportunity to make a positive difference in the world, all it needs is some different leadership, a new focus and a new direction.  But the US could be one of the most positive forces in the world and could lay the seeds for a generation of peace.  In order to have any chance of this Bush must go.
 
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FlyingKnight
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 7, 2004 7:25:34 PM    View the profile of FlyingKnight 
I never meant to say that anyone was anti-military. I think that Bush put the troops where the threat is and that is Iraq and Afganistan. Bush thought well and did what is right. I am not really going to say anymore because  I really am not good at debating things.
 
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Lance Corporal
Frank "FlyingKnight" Carter
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TRP/LCPL FlyingKnight/3SQD/1PLT/COMP/1BAT/1RGT/VEA/VE [LoR]
"To start press the any key, *Pause* where is the any key?"--Anonymous
chipmunk man
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 8, 2004 6:04:01 AM    View the profile of chipmunk man 
Alright Afyon, what would YOU be doing to fix this situation? Hmm? Send a peace envoy to negotiate? Use "please and thank you" when asking the terrorists to go home?

You say the military should be used for peacekeeping, right? Well, isn't that what we're doing in Iraq at this very moment? I mean, all this time I thought that was the very reason why our troops are still there; they're helping the new government ease into control without the entire country errupting.
 
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Explorer's Post 1863
[This message has been edited by Kadann (edited June 9, 2004 9:43:30 AM)]
Afyon
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 8, 2004 8:09:50 AM    View the profile of Afyon 
Yes but what did you do before that.  You waged war against Iraq and created a situation by which terrorism can migrate into Iraq and thrive.  SOmething that was not possible before.  America has made things worse and is now attempting to patch what it has left together in order to hold the entire country together.

Another thing that irks me is how the US says it has to get more international troops into Iraq so it can begin to cycle some of theirs home.  Let me ask you something.  WHy the hell should any country help the US fix Iraq after the US snubbed the international community and partnered with Britain to launch an illegal war?  Why should any country's soldiers die for an American mistake?  As Colin Powell put it "Its the pottery barn analogy.  We break it, we own it."  You own this mess so the US has no right to demand other nations to help fix it.  Maybe after Vietnam and Iraq now the US will finally learn a lesson about the benefits of peace and multilateralism.  I doubt it but one can always pray.
 
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chipmunk man
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 9, 2004 6:21:47 AM    View the profile of chipmunk man 
It's an illegal war? Wow, I never new that there was some governing body that ruled the world. Do we have one for the solar system and universe, too?

And how was it not possible before for terrorists to enter Iraq? What was stopping them? Did Iraq have some 30 foot wall surrounding it that kept all the terrorists out? If I remember correctly, at least one but maybe a couple more of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi's, and that was before the U.S. invaded.
 
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Explorer's Post 1863
[This message has been edited by Kadann (edited June 9, 2004 9:43:43 AM)]
Kuroishi
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 9, 2004 8:20:35 AM    View the profile of Kuroishi 
My solutions wouldn't be pretty but they would work.

1: Leave the soldiers where they are until my next item is completed.

2: Develop an alternate infastructure to make alternative fuel sources a viable option(we already got alternate fuel sources, we just need to put more stations in to dispense them)

3: Use the emergency war powers act and declare martial law along the canadian and mexican borders.  Illegal aliens attempting to enter America would be shot if I had my way but because the human rights activists I'd probably just have to send them back where they came from.

4: Break a few of the rackets in america by actually making it affordable to get life saving drugs(there are cancer treatment drugs that cost over $4000 a bottle for the simple reason people are willing to pay that much)

5: The other hot topic, abortion.  I'd probably go ahead and have it legalized but not state sponsored.  Illegal abortion was enough of a problem during the 1950's and 1960's that I'd have to say it's one of those things that even if illegal it would go on anyway so I might as well make it as safe as possible.

Anymore campaign issues anyone wants me to touch on on my trail to becomeing president in ten years?
 
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Kuroishi Wraith VEA
Daishi Raptor VEN
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Ich bin hessliche amerikaner.
Nehmen mir zu dein frauen von vernunftig preis tugendhafte.
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JMac
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 9, 2004 9:05:03 AM    View the profile of JMac 
"Yes but what did you do before that.  You waged war against Iraq and created a situation by which terrorism can migrate into Iraq and thrive.  SOmething that was not possible before."

Afyon, Saddam sponsored and granted safe harbors to many terrorist groups.  That is a fact, and no matter how many times you say otherwise, that will always be a fact.

Also, I love how you call the war "illegal" and our efforts unilateral.  We have a large co-alition of nations with us in this, basically all of the nations that contribute any real resources to UN peacekeeping with the exception of those nations that were deep in oil scams and illegal weapons deals with Saddam. hardly "unilateral".  And how can you say that war is "illegal".  What makes a war any more or less legal?

I'd say more, but I am now out of time, and am going to go enjoy my last day of High School.
 
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LCM_ JMac/(=A=)(=SA=)(=MA)(=FOCE=)(MC1)(VC)

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Kuroishi
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 9, 2004 10:32:47 PM    View the profile of Kuroishi 
War is not something that should be entered into lightly and something that is easy for us who are not faced with it to condon or condem.

We arm chair generals and debaters have it easy.  We have hind sight to guide us and tell us what the most commonly percieved view of a past action was.

I never have agreed with the war in Iraq, I think it presents a dangerous precidence.

Best case scenario yes we did knock off one more nation that supports the down fall of America and cause numerous anti-US nations to curb thier zeal a notch or two.

Worst case scenario we have created a whole new breading ground for terrorists in the middle east while governments we believe to be cooperating with us are just mearly paying lipservice while the play the shell game with us once more.

The most commonly said reason why we didn't do this in 1991 was because we were affraid that Iran would become a super nation without Iraq to keep it in check.

Next target on our list should be to take care of our internal problems before we take on external problems.  We have a few problems of our own that have grown on our own soil with no aid from islamic terrorist groups, we have health care and educational problems, we have social problems.  Those are what we should be really worried about.

We asked the UN nicely for support before we went in and all they did was drag thier feet and those nations found to be making illegal weapons deals vetoed our proposals.  Now that we are trying to be nice and ask for help again we find that much the same thing is happening.
 
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Kuroishi Wraith VEA
Daishi Raptor VEN
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Ich bin hessliche amerikaner.
Nehmen mir zu dein frauen von vernunftig preis tugendhafte.
"And the sound of many heads hitting many solid objects was heard throughout the land." me
blah909
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 11, 2004 6:00:08 AM    View the profile of blah909 
hrm...
*checks on this topic, most likley started cause of the segway incident*
*skims the last page*
hehehe, still arguing. probaly shouldn't get in...
 
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blah909/Crewman in Kaph Squadron
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Afyon
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 14, 2004 7:28:33 PM    View the profile of Afyon 
Uh people don't illegally immigrate from Canada to the US Kurioshi.  I don't think martial law along the US-Canada border is either feesible, necessary, warranted, practical, or beneficial to the interests of either sides.  What the US does along the Mexican border is none of my business although I must say you are a tad harsh in regards to it.

Chipmunk, The United States is a member of the United Nations.  The UN specifically states in its charter that:

Article 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.

Read that carefully.  The United States violated that article of the UN charter.  Is it technically illegal, no, unfortunately the UN does not have legal authority to launch a court case against the United States.  However, it shows that the US completed undermined the authority of the UN which isalmost universally accepted is a form of global regulating body in order to preserve peace and stimulate the development of the third world.

Back to Kurioshi again.

I ask you the same question, why should other nations send soldiers to die in Iraq?  Give the world one good reason why it should bail out the US after the US snubbed the international community and decided to pair up with Britain and go it alone.  The broke it, they can fix it.  Each and every death and disablility caused to American soliders in Iraq is the fault of the Bush administration for rushing forward into an unjust and illegetimate war.  perhaps this will teach the US a lesson in the dangers of pre-emptive warfare.  I feel sorry for every soldier who has been forced to go to Iraq and potentially die for a mistake.  The world has every right to refuse to offer military assistance.  I give a lot of credit to Jacques Chirac and Paul Martin for standing up and stopping Bush's latest ploy at trying to get NATO forces into Iraq.  For those Americans who think their "ungraciously" allies have abandonned them.  You are very wrong.  They have instead stood up for what is right while your administration has sent men to die for nothing.  Congrats to all of you who voted Bush in, I hope you like the suffering the soldiers are experiencing from his stupidity.
 
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[This message has been edited by Afyon (edited June 14, 2004 7:36:47 PM)]
Rema
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 14, 2004 9:20:56 PM    View the profile of Rema 
I say we electrify the Rio Grande and put giant automated turrets along our boarders. If anything moves, 300 pounds of lead will fly into it.
 
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*DarkDragoons*
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Kuroishi
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
June 15, 2004 4:16:52 PM    View the profile of Kuroishi 
1: We've caught terrorists who illegally crossed into america from Canada.

2: I distinctly remember hearing on the BBC news about President Bush trying to get UN support for the invasion of Iraq.  There were votes and everything.  Take a look.  You'll see that we got vetoed by countries that have had illegal arms dealings with Iraq.

3: Well I'd say Russia, France, and Germany since they have been caught in illegal trade deals with Iraq have definate responsibilities too.

4:  Why should I be nice and give an illegal immigrant a chance to get my job and get payed half my wage?  Why should I let drug smugglers run free?

5: I didn't vote for either Bush or Gore.

6: Yes this was something that didn't have to happen this way but since it has there is no reason why the Iraqies have to suffer for it.  This would go a lot faster if other nations jumped and said they were willing to help.

7: Iraq had missles they were not supposed to.

8: Next.
 
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Kuroishi Wraith VEA
Daishi Raptor VEN
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Ich bin hessliche amerikaner.
Nehmen mir zu dein frauen von vernunftig preis tugendhafte.
"And the sound of many heads hitting many solid objects was heard throughout the land." me
Argon Viper
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
July 1, 2004 12:07:41 AM    View the profile of Argon Viper 
Well, it's been a while since I was here, but it's time I poked my head back in the ring.  It looks like it's been a pretty spirited argument, decent points on both sides.  A major point I saw was JMac's set of quotes.  I'd like to point out that all of those quotes are quite old, and are based mostly on the intelligence the 9/11 commission has officially labeled as "faulty".

As much as I'm against illegal immigration, I have to say, it's possibly the only thing that makes our current economy possible.  Believe me, these people are doing jobs no American would do, for less than any American would take.  If we didn't have that source of labor, our current prosperity would likely not be the case.  Also, if you're looking to stop it from happening, the border isn't where you're going to make it happen.  Force people to apply the minimum wage to illegal immigrants, if they have to pay them the same amount they would have to pay an American, most countries would rather take the American and look patriotic 

Anyways, I've seen tons of justification for the invasion of Iraq, and I don't disagree that most of it is real justification, but there are lots of countries with these same justifications that can be applied to them, many that we support.  Take a look:

1) Tyrannical Dictator
-Pakistan*
-North Korea
-Saudi Arabia*
-Iran
-Libya

2) Weapons of Mass Destruction
-United States of America*
-Great Britain*
-France*
-Russia*
-China*
-Pakistan*
-India*
-North Korea
-Israel*

3) Suspected Weapons of Mass Destruction
-Iran

4) Significant Populations Repressed
-China*
-Iran
-North Korea
-Israel*
-Pakistan*

5) Both 1 and 2/3
-North Korea
-Iran
-Pakistan*

6) Both 2/3 and 4
-China*
-Israel*
-North Korea
-Pakistan*
-Iran

7) 1, 2/3, and 4
-North Korea
-Iran
-Pakistan*

* - Supported by the US

As you can see, we're really being slightly hypocritical on the whole scene.  North Korea, Iran, and Pakistan actually have these weapons, obviously they're more of a threat than a country whose military we can sweep aside in a week and who is just at the point of trying to get more than we gave them in the first place.

Anyways, that's my tirade for today, enjoy 
 
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Argon Viper
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"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
[This message has been edited by Argon Viper (edited July 2, 2004 10:58:00 AM)]
Kuroishi
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
July 1, 2004 8:31:29 PM    View the profile of Kuroishi 
Happy.

I'm not sure JMac ever got my analogy but basicly ya, we're setting a double, heck at times tripple standard.  Those do nothing but make more trouble.

Far as I know China still has 'Most Favored Nation' trade status.

I still see the situation we are in as this:

Uncle Sam has his arsenal of Democracy.  There are all these people with guns just as good as his, some are even pointed at him.

Uncle Sam sees Saddam reaching for one of those guns and decides to shoot him to stop him from getting it.

This time Uncle Sam got lucky and no one shot back.
 
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Kuroishi Wraith VEA
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Ich bin hessliche amerikaner.
Nehmen mir zu dein frauen von vernunftig preis tugendhafte.
"And the sound of many heads hitting many solid objects was heard throughout the land." me
Anubis
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
July 11, 2004 12:07:02 AM    View the profile of Anubis 
Okay, here's my whole take on this.  The War with Iraq was justified, but Bush being a horrible diplomat, couldn't get the UN to support the war.  Did Iraq have WMDs, I think yes for Biological and Chem, no for nukes.  Was Saddam a threat to the US, no since even if he had nukes, he had no way to deliver them.  And no, Saddam wasn't involved with the terrorists because Osama and him don't get along one bit.  It was justified for Saddam's killing of innocents, but that was pretty much it.
Bush has left the US far worst off because:
A. North Korea is still a threat
B. The US Military is stretched far too thin, making it possible for a nation like China to invade us possibly in the near future.
Now of course the people of Iraq aren't exactly better either because Iraq is a war zone.
What Bush could have done:
A. Focused on Civil Rights violations of Iraq not WMDs, thus making the UN feel bad if they refused.
B. Had other nations put in more troops and allow other nations more of a role in post-Saddam Iraq.
The truth of the matter is, if Saddam never invaded Kuwait, he and the US would be great friends, but he was an idiot.  Now the US is vulnerable and the Iraqi people are going through a civil war.
Oh, and one note for Mexico and Canada, give it a couple decades and you'll be a part of the US, trust me on this.
 
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PFC Anubis Benor
Wraith Squad
Vast Empire Army
[This message has been edited by Anubis (edited July 11, 2004 12:08:13 AM)]
Afyon
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
July 11, 2004 1:28:46 PM    View the profile of Afyon 
Haven't really been in the mood to argue any more of these points to death but I will say one thing.

Anubis, you couldn't be more wrong.  Canada will never become part of the US.  Thank God for that.  The majority of Canadians either dislike, distrust, or disdain the US and don't want any part of it.  Our national identity is partly made up by how we aren't American.  It's an underlying thing that remains from the war of 1812 and isn't likely to change.

So ya, we will not now or ever will become part of the US.  If that hellish event happens, I'm moving to Europe :P
 
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Rema
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
July 11, 2004 6:21:14 PM    View the profile of Rema 
Its always nice to know you love us Art.
 
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*DarkDragoons*
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"Only Trust your Allies as much as you can Predict your Enemies."
"Do you expect me to talk?" "No Mr. Bond, i expect you to die."
"Luke, I am your Fasha."
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Anubis
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
July 12, 2004 11:49:38 AM    View the profile of Anubis 
You may not think that now, but give 20 years and when I get into politics Canada will bow before the power of American Empire.  And Europe will join as well.  I mean what other nation in the world has set up different military commands for every region in the world.  Not to mention a McDonalds in almost every major city in the world.

No one else better do it first, because I want to be Emperor!
 
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PFC Anubis Benor
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Argon Viper
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
July 12, 2004 1:06:40 PM    View the profile of Argon Viper 
I like Anubis's arguments, but I have to agree with Afyon, Canada would be worse than Iraq if we ever attempted to take it over, and Europe (sorry "American power" peope) would kick our pasty white rumps if we ever tried to take it over.  Face it, these people have at least 25 centuries worth of tactical lessons in history and experience to draw on, and the industrial base of Europe is all of Europe.  In order to defeat them, we'd have to take each and every country individually, suppressing massive rebellions in each while we moved on to the next    Face it, both Hitler and Napoleon tried it, and I don't think we have anyone nearly as intelligent as them 

Anyways, as to Iraq, I'd say Anubis may have given the best objective evaluation of it I've ever seen.  Hats off to you, and if you do take over the world I hope you can keep that kind of judgement up 
 
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Argon Viper
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Fallen Angel and Proud of It!
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
Anubis
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
July 13, 2004 9:47:57 PM    View the profile of Anubis 
Hey Afyon, here's something for you to think about, did the majority of Canadians dislike, distrust, or disdain the US under Clinton?

And anyway, who said anything about taking over the world by military alone.  What do you think behind the scenes deals are for anyway.

Offer someone safety and power, and they will fall into your hands.  Let's take Mexico for example, many people there want jobs, especially American jobs.  So if the US said they would offer US jobs, technology, and all the other great crap we have, as well as letting the President of Mexico keep some bit of power, I'm sure the states/provinces of Mexico could become US states.

Now let's take a look at North Korea, they think that Communism will work but it is so apparent that it doesn't.  Kim Jong Il is power hungry, and doesn't want to lose the power that he obviously will if a conflict occurs, so he makes nukes.  If we were to offer Kim Jong Il the possibility of being Governor or something a little higher than that of North Korea, while the nation itself comes under our control, he would most likely join since it would be the most rational thing for him to do.  And if not, or he decides to betray us or something like that, we just nuke the living snot out of North Korea. (And don't anyone tell me about nuclear fallout, I know all about it and how it'll likely hurt South Korea, Japan, and possibly some other allies.)
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
July 14, 2004 10:39:57 AM    View the profile of Argon Viper 
Interesting idea, and I can't say it's one I haven't mulled over several times in the past.  That said, I'm quite sure we could use that approach to get a large portion of the third world to join us, but seriously, what actual advantage do we get out of that?  It's the first world that would be the problem with that plan anyways, and unless you can run roughshod over China, France, Britain, and Russia in a few hours, you're gonna get nuked 
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
July 16, 2004 7:38:22 PM    View the profile of Afyon 
Well Anubis it is not that simple.

The reason why Canada will not ever become part of the US is actually quite simple.  We in Canada define our national identity in two regards.  The first part is our immense diversity, multiculturalism, successful federalism, etc.  But also much of the Canadian identity is made up by how we are not American.  We as a people define ourselves as what we are not, not what we are.  It is a unique phenomenon and from the outside may look a tad absurd. That being said its a blessing in disguise as it will ensure that we will remain a soverign nation and will not become American.  A recent study indicated that Canada is continuing to keep with western European values and has become even more European in the last decade, I hope this trend continues.

Did Canadians trust and like America under Clinton?  Answer, they didn't mind Clinton but most Canadians hold a suspicion of the United States and its motives.  I don't think its necessary to begin to examine each move the US has done that can be met with suspicion.  I'll bring up two.  The coup in Chilie and the installation of Agusto Pinochet and the invasion of Grenada.  It is because of American involvement in these affairs and other such as the war in Angola, the assassination of the leader of Iran in 1954 by the Brits and the Americans, and dozens of our incidents that are the cause of Canadian's distrust of the US.

Most Canadians are very well informed of the bad the US has done.  It again goes to how we define ourselves as a nation.  The more dirt we find on the US, the stronger our identity of not being American becomes.  It was weakened a bit during the Clinton years because Chretien and Clinton were could friends.

Ironically I am going to praise George W Bush in this next sentence, the thought that I am praising him just sickens me.  But I must give him credit, Bush has revived our strong national identity and made us more proud to be Canada than we have in a long time.  Indeed the last 4 years have been tremendous to the Canadian psyche.  So in that regard, thank you President Bush, you make us proud to be Canadian.
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
July 17, 2004 9:05:51 AM    View the profile of Zafo 
Wow.

So well said.


 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
July 19, 2004 12:12:51 AM    View the profile of Fallen Angel 
*Edit* You dig up dirt on America because you little bastards have nothing better to do...cept play hockey, make maple syrup and whine about how TERRIBLE the US is. pfft.
 
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
July 19, 2004 12:24:39 AM    View the profile of Rema 
Gotta love 'em.
 
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[This message has been edited by Rema (edited July 19, 2004 12:26:59 AM)]
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  RE: Before you make any "political" statements...
July 30, 2004 10:00:03 AM    View the profile of Argon Viper 
Well, I'd have to say that the US is never going to engulf Canada.  At least in Iraq we had some people in the invaded country who supported our motives (about 30% I'd say, but still some).  If we were to invade Canada, we'd see every citizen in some way doing their part to support an uprising that would kill a thousand of our soldiers a day, not every couple months.  I'd think very carefully before invading any democratic country with a sense of national identity...
 
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