Sorry about my little outburst. I was a bit irritated that night, and rececntly because of the crappiness of my computer I just scroll down to the closest post to the bottom, caught that one, and didn't think to scroll up to what it was referring to. So totally ignore, or at least forgive, that first part of my post. The second paragraph still stands in my opinion though
 
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Sergeant First Class Otto Vox
Dark Jedi Knight
Former Squad Leader - Iron Horse
Vast Empire Army Reserves
SFC Otto Vox/[LM][ES][SoS]
CM/DJK Otto Vox/Krath/Lion 1-4/VEDJ
Give into the inferno that is the Dark Side of the Force.-Otto Vox

True, but there wasn't any reason for it, because there wasn't anything said that I was replying to. I lashed out at blah because I thought he was saying something he wasn't, that's what I was apologizing for.

And chip, I don't think anything, I know there was no evidence, Cheney himself said that the government had no evidence of any WMD's. Whether or not Saddam used them in the past has no relivence to the fact that the government had no evidence that Saddam had those weapons back in March. The heads of the United States lied to their own people to get their own way, and that is not right.
 
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Sergeant First Class Otto Vox
Dark Jedi Knight
Former Squad Leader - Iron Horse
Vast Empire Army Reserves
SFC Otto Vox/[LM][ES][SoS]
CM/DJK Otto Vox/Krath/Lion 1-4/VEDJ
Give into the inferno that is the Dark Side of the Force.-Otto Vox

Cheny, just asked my mother, it's Cheny. But yeah, I totally feel ya
 
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Sergeant First Class Otto Vox
Dark Jedi Knight
Former Squad Leader - Iron Horse
Vast Empire Army Reserves
SFC Otto Vox/[LM][ES][SoS]
CM/DJK Otto Vox/Krath/Lion 1-4/VEDJ
Give into the inferno that is the Dark Side of the Force.-Otto Vox

So, what you're saying is, just because a country wishes to make or buy WMD, they should be invaded and the leadership demolished? Ok, then when's that going to happen to the US? When's that going to happen to Enlgand or Russia? Never, ya wanna know why? Because we're all super-powers and like to pick on the little guy. We're all allies, and we don't want any country that might even in the slightest be our enemy to have weapons, because we wanna be the big guys, the policemen of the world. If you looked at the amount of nuclear weapons the US alone has, you'd be more frightened of it than Iraq having some. I personally fear for the day that some idiot attacks the US, and an even more idiotic president, God forbid we get someone more stupid than Dubbyah, launches a nuke at 'em, and nuclear war would commense, bringing down nuclear winter. That's what scares me.

Yes, I believe that Saddam is a horrible man, and I'm glad he's out of power in Iraq, but honestly, would he be stupid enough to attack a country that we thought to be our allies? Cause if he did, anyone with a quarter of a brain knows that Iraq would become Lake America in the Middle East. Reduced to nothing but a huge crater. And America would live on with a bloody hand.
 
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Sergeant First Class Otto Vox
Dark Jedi Knight
Former Squad Leader - Iron Horse
Vast Empire Army Reserves
SFC Otto Vox/[LM][ES][SoS]
CM/DJK Otto Vox/Krath/Lion 1-4/VEDJ
Give into the inferno that is the Dark Side of the Force.-Otto Vox

Just a note for all of you all. This hasnt annoyed me in the past but its beginning to. When you want to refer to things that the United States has done, refer more towards our administration. The majority of the people (smart people) in the US dont support the war in Iraq. Please dont lump us all in one category. Thank you.

First, you say that the Iraqi people wanted us there? I agree a fair amount of Iraqi's probably wanted us their. But last time i checked the news wasnt exactly showing anything about how people DONT like the US there. Showing people not liking the occupations is bad propaganda.

Next, the entire WMD thing. The thing is we dont know if he had them. What makes the most sense though is that he was looking into building WMD. Not nuclear weapons but biological and chemical weapons. He used them before, so why not again?

Ok now about the entire superpower/bullying thing. The reason no one is gonna invade the United States is because the US isnt gonna randomly start launching nuclear missiles at Britain, Russia or anyone else. That goes for the rest of the countries. These tiny third world countries have been known to be unstable and brash. The allies that make up the worlds superpowers are gonna be the worlds police force. Lets all imagine a world where the United States, Britain, Russia, France and everyone else does nothing with the rest of the world. What do you think would happen? We would all be at peace? No. Some country somewhere with some insane dictator would want more power and launch a nuclear missile at someone, or use biological weapons. The superpowers of the world cant just stand around and do nothing. With great power comes great responsibility. We cant ignore that. We cant ignore the rest of the world. Sometimes we need to intervene. I agree some of it is to inflate egos and spread tentacles all over the world, but some the "bullying" is needed.

Next up is the China thing. Did you know that back in the late 1800's early 1900's the US had plans to invade china? A little known fact. Anyway the reason that the United States doesnt invade China is because that would just be stupid. Currently China really isnt making waves. While they were, things have calmed down since the North Korea nuclear missiles. Now also a little known thing is this. The US and its allies have slowly surrounded China. From the North, South, East, and just currently the West.(Iraq) This has thought to be a possible reason we went into Iraq.

Now about the training and supplying of Middle Eastern people. You must remember back about 30 years ago the biggest threat to the United States what the Soviet Union. So anyone that was against the USSR was a potential ally. Since the US couldnt attack the USSR in all small countries in the Middle East, they gave training and weapons to the people that were rebelling against them. Even the greatest superpower on the Earth has faults. No one is perfect remember that.

Oh and Otto dont worry about that nuclear strike. We would only launch if someone else launched. And you most likely wouldnt be around to see the nuclear winter.

 
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"Only Trust your Allies as much as you can Predict your Enemies."
"We need Boots! Good Boots! The kind of Boots your mother used to make!"
"Luke, I am your Fasha."
To Nom Anor, a truly superior Yuuzhan Vong.
TRP/LCPRema/3SQD/2PLT/1COM/1BAT/1RGT/VEA/VE[LoR][OPE] [AM-B][AM-S][AM-P]

Point is: no one here is liable to change anyone else's mind, especially with the arguments I've been reading lately.

For those who can do so, your only chance to effect change is the upcoming primary season and general election in the fall.

For them and the rest of you, trying to cultivate better relationships with those of other countries should be a given in this club.  A non-American calling us gun-toting hegemonists does not make us consider any of your following words favorably.  And any American spouting off any superpower "we've-got-the-guns, hence the power" crap is on my list as well.  Last I checked, the US had pissed away any of its international goodwill and the dollar is down across the board.  Having power means knowing how to use it and we've done a lot better with those resources in the past.

In the meantime, quit bashing nationalities, cultures, races, and religions on all sides by lumping every member of said group in with their bad apples.  That includes Bush, Bin Laden, Cheney, Hussein and any other ass-clown you wish to bring up.
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PRF/GEN Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [SCP][PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
Prefect - Stormtrooper Corps
Administrator - Imperial Center

I know I'm not going to change your minds. I'm trying to stay rational and keep this a mature debate. BUT I CAN'T TAKE IT ANY MORE! THE STUPID IDIOT KNOWN HAS SADDAM HAD WMD'S! FOR GOD'S SAKE PEOPLE, HE USED CHEMICAL WEAPONS ON HIS OWN POPULATION! THAT IS A HISTORICAL FACT! YOU CAN'T SAY HE DIDN'T HAVE THEM WHEN IT IS A HISTORICAL FACT THAT HE USED THEM!

Thank you. Now I have that off my chest.
 
And by the way, it's spelled "Cheney."

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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstien

"There is a certain kind of peace that can be found only on the other side of war." -Sean Connery as King Arthur


FL/PO2 Chipmunk Man/Kaph 3-1/Phoenix/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)[LoC][MC:1]

I'm afraid that one went over even me, so there is no hope of Chippy getting it.
 
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LCM_TO_ JMac/(=A=)(=SA=)(=MA)(=FOCE=)(MC1)(VC)

Naval Training Officer

Viva el gato mojado!!!

Semper Fidelis

Could we have the cat and virginity one?
 
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"Only Trust your Allies as much as you can Predict your Enemies."
"We need Boots! Good Boots! The kind of Boots your mother used to make!"
"Luke, I am your Fasha."
To Nom Anor, a truly superior Yuuzhan Vong.
TRP/LCPRema/3SQD/2PLT/1COM/1BAT/1RGT/VEA/VE[LoR][OPE] [AM-B][AM-S][AM-P]

All good points.  I'd comment, but I'm worried what kind of metaphor Fury would roll out.

Fury, could be please have the cat metaphor?  it sounds interesting.
 
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LCM_TO_ JMac/(=A=)(=SA=)(=MA)(=FOCE=)(MC1)(VC)

Naval Training Officer

Viva el gato mojado!!!

Semper Fidelis

Like I said I'm not actually very familliar with a lot of what the UN has done in the past but the recent events that stick out in my mind lend me to believe the UN does not do what it is supposed to very well.

Either our news agencies have lied to us or Saddam Hussien had and used long range missles he was not permitted to have under UN mandate.

The UN took no for an answer when they asked to send in represenatives to watch our elections.

France and Russia used thier veto power to make sure we couldn't get UN support for the second round of the fight with Iraq.

In my perfect world no member of the UN would be allowed a veto capability.  Veto power for member nations ensure that only the personal agendas of those nations get carried out with rare exceptions of a good cause actuallt being backed up.

I hear a lot of buzz words saying that UN support is fading away from rebuilding Iraq.  To me that is a pretty clear indication the UN is not doing what it is supposed to, if it were the UN would at least be doing a bit more then what it currently is to get a not american puppet goverment in there.

The UN very well may have worked somewhat in the past but right now it's not securing my confidence.
 
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Kuroishi Wraith VEA
Daishi Raptor VEN
Assistant Writer Why Project Copyright Infringment
Ich bin hessliche amerikaner.
Nehmen mir zu dein frauen von vernunftig preis tugendhafte.
"And the sound of many heads hitting many solid objects was heard throughout the land." me

If the UN could learn to enforce its own resolutions, then it might have something resembling a worthwhile purpose. Instead, they have shown that they are all talk and little show; cowards who can't back up their own statements. I've heard many people complaining that the United States acts like the world's policeman. Well if the Uniited Nations would learn how to use their handcuffs properly, the US wouldn't have to cover for them anymore.
 
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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstien

"There is a certain kind of peace that can be found only on the other side of war." -Sean Connery as King Arthur


FL/PO2 Chipmunk Man/Kaph 3-1/Phoenix/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)[LoC][MC:1]

Rema, while most of the recent posters seem to be ignoring that, there is the reality that the UN popped into Iraq, saw it was "dangerous" and popped right back out again.

Speaking of your other UN efforts, some of them are in deplorable and hostile environments, which the UN has willingly run head-first into, danger be damned.  So where is the motivation to do the same in Iraq?  I say its there, but restrained by political forces.  The losers? The Iraqi people.

This is not to say I don't think the UN does not have problems it needs to address.  But here's the thing: the US helped build a lot of these multinational entities because it would HELP us expand our vision of a fair and just would.  Weaseling out of things like Kyoto and the Nuclear Test Ban when we helped create them is ludicrous.  Coming to the UN and World Court only to appease some potential voters is equally disingenuous.

We helped build the damn edifices and organizations our administration complains about.  The only thing you do in a situation like that is try to make an honest effort to reform or work through a system that, after all, is built on consensus and compromise.  The world is too big of an interdependent, hostile place to have some runt from Texas basically just "pick up his ball and go home."  Two world wars were prolonged once because of our isolationist BS.  We do not need to sit and watch the Jacque Chirac's of this world take the tools we helped build and turn them into anti-American clubs.

If its broke, fix it.  Don't just walk away from it.
 
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PRF/GEN Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [SCP][PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
Prefect - Stormtrooper Corps
Administrator - Imperial Center

Granted, I myself won't change anyone's mind either, but I figured I'd clarify what I perceived as unfair assessments and then let it go at that.

1. We, the entire United States, are being judged unfairly because of our leader.  That's unfair.  I certainly didn't vote for the clown and neither did the majority of the country.  That said, just because Chirac and Schroeder run their respective countries doesn't mean all French and Germans want to browbeat us into the ground.  Just some of them.

2. Guess who else at certain times had great weapons and oil contracts with Iraq?  Us.  Guess that takes a bit away from your argument when its obvious we will be having some again any time now.

3.  Our "grand" coalition includes a lot of countries that support us in principle and not in materiel.  Aside from the Brits, Aussies, and some Eastern Europeans, its not like anyone is putting up combat troops alongside ours.  Yes, the Japanese have gone way out of their way to help, but should they see losses on a big scale, they'll be forced to pull out of there.

To put some perspective on this, refer to this site.  From how I read it, that counts 15 (if your include the Marshalls) out of more or less 170 countries on this planet who have actually risked the lives of their soldiers in this venture.  You'd have to be nuts to consider that a "fairly large co-alition (sic) of nations."

3. By disregarding and considering the UN and NATO as irrelevant to our goals, that would certainly count as isolationist moves.  So are pulling out of multiple treaty talks concerning the environment and nuclear weapons. Just because we can't have our way all the time means that the system actually works, NOT the other way around. Having people feel they are being lorded over by the US is not good for us as a nation. If you ever truly travel outside our borders - or just turn off FoxNews for an hour - you'd actually understand why.

As for France and Germany "talking of Imperialism", remember the definition of imperialism as: the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas (Merriam-Webster).  While France may be looking for a greater chunk of power in the EU and a broader extension of said body as a counter to the US, I was call that an over-zealous ego trip based in some DeGaullist myth, not something to truly worry about.  As for Germany, I doubt they plan on doing anything approaching imperialism for fear of freaking out their neighbors.

No, point is, yes the UN needs a lot of reform.  I am actually all in favor of the revoking of veto from all five nations who have it.  However, this mess is of our own administration's making.  Granted, not everyone played along and they, as much as we, need to accept our errors in recent events.

Waving around a flag, however, does not excuse the mistakes of our current administration.  Neither does coercing or buying people out to accept our point of view as we've done with much of our "coalition of the willing".  We are a much better country than George Bush would lead us to believe.
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PRF/GEN Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [SCP][PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
Prefect - Stormtrooper Corps
Administrator - Imperial Center

I'll say it first...and we got to be to be a free and independent country how again?