Bear
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 13, 2003
4:27:09 AM
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Seeing a "bright light before death" can be explained in a metaphysical sense.
If you believe it is there, it will be.
A philosophy lecturer once took a stick half submerged in a bucket of water into a college lecture. He asked the students to describe the stick.
They all said the stick was straight, as they know that a stick looks bent when half submerged in water.
The lecturer took the stick out of the water.
The stick was bent.
See? -----------------------
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Raziel
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 13, 2003
9:01:19 AM
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How long before man did god create light?
Go have a look at a distant galaxy through a telescope, how long has that light been travelling for? -----------------------
SL/SGMTRaziel/4SQD/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/ {EW1} {WoS} {VP} {IG}
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"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.
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Raziel
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 13, 2003
9:15:11 AM
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And i think the proof that one celled organisms can evolve to us is that we have the whole spectrum of organisms right infront of us.
We have viroids who are made of less than 10,000 atoms, made entirely of nucleic acids and have only a single strand of DNA.
We then have us. When you come down to it all we are is lots and lots of cells with specific tasks. Just like every other organism on this planet we are made of the same stuff. Everything uses DNA and RNA and essentially makes copies of itself in the same way.
Of course you could also say that God made everything so he would use the same system to create everthing.
please answer my earlier question cos  -----------------------
SL/SGMTRaziel/4SQD/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/ {EW1} {WoS} {VP} {IG}
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"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.
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Raziel
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 13, 2003
9:22:18 AM
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Oh by the way Cosmic my bio-chemistry isnt good.
however i do a fair amount of backrounding reading in astrophysics and cosmology so if you would like me to tell you the current theory on how the first stars evolved by all means ask me on irc and ill go through it with you i dont have a very good grasp of the physics involved yet but it's still too much for me to be arsed to type.
It has to do with gases, background radiation and dark matter -----------------------
SL/SGMTRaziel/4SQD/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/ {EW1} {WoS} {VP} {IG}
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"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.
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LostSoldier
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 13, 2003
9:34:46 AM
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To be honest with you, I don't think it matters that much. if you beleive in God, I still don't think you have to have the exact answers for anything. And for those who don't believe in God, just choose to put there faith in science. -----------------------
TRP/LCP LostSoldier/2SQD/1PLT/1COM/1BAT/1REG/VEA/VE |
Argon Viper
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 13, 2003
9:09:54 PM
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I'm going to half agree with LostSoldier there. Half agree in the sense that I've met people like he's talking about, on both sides of the board. I live in an area renowned for hickness, conservative thought, and fundamental Christianity, so I see a lot of people who either won't accept your arguments, or don't have the education to understand your arguments.
On the other side, I've seen people debate where the religious side brings up a perfectly good point (I still feel I could answer it, but it's a good point nonetheless) and the scientific side just rejects it totally.
We're all a little like that, some more than others, but I can tell from the responses that we've been getting that, at least among the most vocal of us, we are listening to each other and understanding each other, and even if we prove nothing one way or the other, we've all come out better for it 
That said, let's keep this debate rolling 
Lesse, the biochemistry angle I'll handle in a second, I've got a pretty good hold of that, but I think I'll first extend an offer to help Raz in the physics department of the universal evolution, since I've got a pretty good idea on that too.
Anyways, evolution.
The theory is as follows.
*entering scientific lecture phase
Early organic molecules were formed in what is, today, called the "organic soup". We know that this is possible because we have recreated similar conditions in laborotories and watched these molecules form.
This point occurred at a very precise time (if you think it's impossible, look at my earlier talk to prability) when the ozone layer was strong enough to block most of the suns' rays, but weak enough to let in a substantial amount of them.
As you know, UV radiation can alter genetic structures (look at skin cancer if you don't believe me), and this is what is theorized happened. Note that I call what the sun does an "altering", not a "destruction", it can go both ways, it just rarely does.
After this point, it becomes more complicated. Cosmic was correct in saying that something cannot be created from nothing, that there has to be something before it. However, that's an idea that relates to physics with no relation to planet Earth where biological molecules are plentiful and are not, in fact, "nothing". If you want to know their origins, look to Raz for a lecture on astrophysics
In the case of these cells, they were, at first, very simple little things. However, in each generation, mutations occur. If the mutation is a benefit, it will most likely (not always, but most likely) be transferred to the next and will eventually become dominant.
Now, not all areas have the same requirements for survival, so different mutations are acceptable in different places. When a series of mutations brings to groups to a point where they can no longer interbreed, they are considered to be seperate species.
Now, you can imagine from there how each of our features formed. Sight would be an incredible advantage, but it most likely started as a simple detection of light. This would evolve through millions of years to produce what we have today.
The same with the beak of a bird. You will notice that many of them are suited to entirely different functions. These most likely evolved from a common ancestor, yet, over the mellenia, each has specialized in a certain area to the point where they can no longer interbreed, becoming a... don't know the word, but I'd guess "kingdom" is the right term... instead of a single species.
Now, this is the shortened version, but I feel it should be sufficient to anyone who's had a biology class.
I hope you enjoyed it.
Raz? Space and time please -----------------------
Argon Viper
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Raziel
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 14, 2003
11:28:51 AM
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eurggh bugger it if i must.
Firstly Cosmic microwave background radiation. At first space was opaque and radiation could not travel freely through it, after about 380,000 years atoms were formed and the universe became transparant and photons were able to travel freely. (referred to as decoupling of matter and radiation.
I don't really understand a black body spectrum but it has to do with radiation emmited from something in thermodynamic equilibrium and the universe behaved like one when the radiation was emitted. As the universe has expanded the waves have also expanded, so the wavelength of the radiation has increased. The radiation that we now recieve is in the range of microwaves and appears to be from a black-body of temperature 3k.
(from this radiation we can also find out what speed our solar system is moving through the universe, isnt this CMBR handy?)
Analysis of the data shows that the universe is almost exactly 13.7 billion years old. (give or take 200 million years) and by looking at polarization they can see that stars started ionising surrounding gas about 200 million years after the big bang
Ok timeline.
After the iniverse expanded very very rapidly (inflation) it was very smooth and dark. So matter was fairly evenly spread throughout the universe.
It's thought that the matter started the form into clumps fairly early on and started to form filaments of denser material.
Protogalaxies would have started to form along the nodes of these filaments (where they join) In them the dark matter and ordinary matter would have been mixed together rather than seperated like today. The protogalaxies would also have consisted entirely of helium and hydrogen, because the heavier elements are created in stars.
It's actually fairly easy to model how the first stars would have been performed apparantly 
the gas would have started to compress and would have heated up to temperatures of 1,000 kelvins or more. For the first time molecular hydrogen would have started to form as the atoms paired up. This small amount of molecular hydrogen would then have started to cool the rest of the gas by emitting IR radiation as they collided with atoms. The temperatures in the densest parts of the gas would have cooled to around 200 kelvin allowing the matter to contract into clumps of matter that were bound by gravity.
As dark matter does not emit radiation it would not cool down and so would stay moving at higher velocities and would remnain scattered in a halo around the protogalaxy (like galaxies now). The densest parts of the gas would collapse into stars. As the temperatures of these gas clouds was higher than those where stars form now the models show that the stars would have been almost 500-1000 times as massive as our sun. (these predictions are very accurate as hydrogen behaves in a fairly predictable way.)
These stars would have been much more luminous than modern stars and they would have had much hotter surface temperatures because of the lack of metals. (models show that the temp. would have been about 20 times that of the sun.) These stars would have then started to ionise all the nearby gas. Some observations confirmed that the gas was almost entirely ionised around 900 million years after the big bang.
These giant stars would have exploded spreading the first small amounts of heavier elements throughout the universe. Stars would then have started forming at a faster rate. Some of the more massive stars would have collapsed to form black holes, which would have started merging to form supermassive black holes which are believed to be at the centre of every galaxy.
Star creating would have increased rapidly forming more and more metal rich stars and modern galaxies would have started forming around the black holes. As the universe started expanding everything cooled and turned out as it did today.
If there's anyone on or in a degree course in physics with astrophysics right now feel free to correct me and please come talk to me sometime so i can ask you questions lol -----------------------
SL/SGMTRaziel/4SQD/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/ {EW1} {WoS} {VP} {IG}
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"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.
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Raziel
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 14, 2003
11:34:10 AM
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dont forget its the nulceotides and proteins that are needed to form the first self replicating cells argon! go on give us the longer version!
I would recommend that everyone reads "cosmos" by carl sagan. Great book.
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SL/SGMTRaziel/4SQD/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/ {EW1} {WoS} {VP} {IG}
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"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.
[This message has been edited by
Raziel
(edited June 14, 2003
11:36:01 AM)]
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LostSoldier
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 14, 2003
1:07:37 PM
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Any idea we come up with to prove the coming of the earth, will most likely seem too far-fetched for me to believe. I'm a skeptic, and a broad thinker. I can't seem to commit myself to any way for certain. In my opinion, we COULD have been created in 6 days like the Bible sais, and we COULD have came from tiny organisms, and evolved into what we are now. I know about as much as anyone else, and that's not much. So I'm open to all suggestions, I think different theories are incredibly interesting ... I just can't choose one >.< -----------------------
TRP/LCP LostSoldier/2SQD/1PLT/1COM/1BAT/1REG/VEA/VE |
Raziel
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 14, 2003
1:21:15 PM
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hehe thats a very interesting way to be lostsoldier
What are you studying right now? -----------------------
SL/SGMTRaziel/4SQD/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/ {EW1} {WoS} {VP} {IG}
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"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.
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Cosmic
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 14, 2003
2:58:29 PM
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That's all very interesting, but let me go back to your one comment:
At first space was opaque and radiation could not travel freely through it, after about 380,000 years atoms were formed and the universe became transparant and photons were able to travel freely. (referred to as decoupling of matter and radiation.
Was space really opaque? How do you know this? By some book? By someone else's theories? Something you learned in school?
Basically, we all look at something, figure out what it's composed of, how it behaves, it's recent behaviorial history, and then create a explanation that is the most logical. There is no possible way for us to really know that space expanded in such a way or was really opaque. No one could've observed it.
So, in a way, you really have no hard evidence or proof that that's how it all happened. You really are believing that it happened that way because it might be the most logical explanation.
In medicine, when a patient is in a deep coma for a long time and is on the brink of dying, it is very hard to believe that that patient will survive. However, when a prayer (or prayers) have been said and that patient miraculously pulls through, how is it explained? Doctors are stumped, and we Christians know that it was God that had heard our prayers and had helped His child to pull through.
I guess my point is that even science is also somewhat based on belief, and not really all based on scientific proof and hard evidence. -----------------------
Cleric "Cosmic" Vor'soth
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LostSoldier
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 14, 2003
4:10:00 PM
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Well, spending the last 3 years in a Christian school, I studied all that great stuff. I'm now doing alot of research on evolution and other Religious writings stating theories of our creation I love reading any of Darwin's stuff -- -----------------------
TRP/LCP LostSoldier/2SQD/1PLT/1COM/1BAT/1REG/VEA/VE |
Raziel
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 16, 2003
2:15:28 AM
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"no one observed it" you really didnt read the bit about CMBR did you?
Actually there has been a lot of hard evidence recently. People didn't just come up with that theory cosmic, earlier theories would have been very different. But a lot of things have been backed up by evidence from WMAP which has made a map of cosmic microwave background radiation....which actually is from the start of the universe, so in a way we can actually observe it.
I really dont understand why you picked on that bit really because either space was opaque or radiation suddenly appeared 380,000 years after the start of the universe.
If i were you i would have questions several other points which really are more theoretical lol
However as to you last point there are several differences between the way we believe. Faith.
A scientist will make a theory based on fundamental laws that we know to be true in this universe, be it god's universe or not and he and several others might believe this.
However if observation and tests give hard evidence that this theory may not be true the scientist will normally accept it and go back to his work.
People will believe something they have, even more when they have direct evidence, but they are willing to accept that it might be wrong if someone shows them it cannot be true.
What is interesting about the theory i posted early was that after they gained a little bit of evidence that was mostly made up theoretically. However evidence has come about more recently that really does back it up well.
However if someone proved that the evidence was misleading and the theory was wrong, i would accept that. -----------------------
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"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.
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Raziel
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 16, 2003
2:40:03 AM
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ah ive found a site which explains a lot of the evidence behind cosmology.
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm
actually this page on the site
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmo-religion.html
brings up a lot of things we've been talking about
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SL/SGMTRaziel/4SQD/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/ {EW1} {WoS} {VP} {IG}
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"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.
[This message has been edited by
Raziel
(edited June 16, 2003
2:44:16 AM)]
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Raziel
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 16, 2003
2:41:26 AM
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btw Cosmic you're not against teaching evolution or anything are you?
I really doubt you are but i had to check if you're THAT type of cristian
i found this just now, thought it was interesting:
THE VALUE OF SCIENCE
The rise of modern science, starting some 400 years ago, took place within a Christian culture. Many key scientists were in Holy Orders. A very positive attitude to science and faith was often in evidence. The astronomer Kepler spoke of 'thinking God's thoughts after him'. Isaac Newton hoped that his famous 'Principia' would 'persuade thinking men to believe in a deity'. Examples could be multiplied. Moreover, the Bible itself seemed to provide encouragement to do science, for ...
God had commanded humans to manage the earth responsibly (Genesis 1). It seemed they needed to understand how it worked in order to do that.
God could be glorified by acquiring knowledge that would both help to relieve pain and suffering and reveal his wisdom and power.
The Bible removed one hindrance to experimental science - the ancient philosophy of 'pantheism'. Pantheists regarded experimentation on creation as sacrilege because God and nature were the same thing. The Bible taught that God was distinct from his creation.
Science is of course practised by fallible human beings, and so isn't perfect. But it is still a worthwhile activity that can be done to the glory of God.
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SL/SGMTRaziel/4SQD/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/ {EW1} {WoS} {VP} {IG}
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"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.
[This message has been edited by
Raziel
(edited June 16, 2003
2:56:59 AM)]
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Cosmic
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 16, 2003
10:00:24 AM
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Ah, well, I don't and will not teach the theory of Evolution. -----------------------
Cleric "Cosmic" Vor'soth
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Cleric "Cosmic" Vor'soth
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LostSoldier
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 17, 2003
3:26:30 PM
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If I were a teacher, i'd give a few examplery books(the Bible, Darwin's writings, etc...), and tell the kids to think for themselves. Don't believe something because you learned about it in school/church. -----------------------
TRP/LCP LostSoldier/2SQD/1PLT/1COM/1BAT/1REG/VEA/VE |
Cosmic
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 17, 2003
3:31:39 PM
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I didn't say that I don't like science. Science is good, but I just don't believe in the theory of Evolution. That's all.
As for learning the Bible through church, I wouldn't totally go that way either. What you hear from the minister is his/her interpretation of the Bible. Everyone has a view of what each paragraph means to them. You have to read the Bible yourself to truly grasp what it is saying. -----------------------
Cleric "Cosmic" Vor'soth
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Cleric "Cosmic" Vor'soth
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Japer
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 17, 2003
5:18:44 PM
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speaking of the bible, I noticed a couple of odd things in early Genesis. Did you know that in the first story of creation, it says God said" WE shall our create man in OUR likeness, and in OUR image." Also, other perplexing story, is the Origin of the Nephlium in chapter 6. It says they were the heros of old. What "old" where they talking about? I believe that the answers to both those questions are reaveled in the Earth Chronicles by Zecharia Sitchen. -----------------------
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LostSoldier
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 18, 2003
3:13:07 PM
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Depends on the exact translation. Since theres different ways of interperating different writings included in the Bible, so many things become flip-flopped around and have a twisted meeting. But Japer, I think your right. If i'm not mistaken, the dead sea scrolls have the plural tense of the creator(s) in Genesis. -----------------------
TRP/LCP LostSoldier/2SQD/1PLT/1COM/1BAT/1REG/VEA/VE |
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 18, 2003
5:04:04 PM
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I agree that students should be given several possibilities, with several resources, and encouraged to think for themeselves. That teaches them how to be independent.
I ask skeptics one question. Where did the universe come from? People say, "The Big Bang." But where did that come from? A piece of super-dense matter? Fine. But where did the super-dense matter come from?
The flip side is explain the fossils that have been found. Some creationists insit God would never let a species become extinct, yet they take the Bible litteraly. So what's up with the dinosaurs? And what about the dodo? They're extinct.
What I'm trying to say is that everyone needs to keep an open mind, and remember that there are valid arguments to support most sides. -----------------------
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstien
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Cosmic
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 18, 2003
5:35:40 PM
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First off, God didn't kill of the Dodo. Man did. Second, it's not like God hated the dinosaurs and just killed them. I, myself, don't know why or exactly how the dinosaurs died. Also, God doesn't kill animals to extinction. Man does this.
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Cleric "Cosmic" Vor'soth
CoT/COL Cosmic/HCA-3/VEA/VE [OPE][OTH][OPA][EW1][CDS][IH][GS][SoS][CoH][PoC][MSM][IOC]
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Cleric "Cosmic" Vor'soth
SL/KPR Cosmic/Lion 1-1/mSSD Atrus/VEDJ/VE [VP][KC1][OAK]
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[This message has been edited by
Cosmic
(edited June 18, 2003
5:36:34 PM)]
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chipmunk man
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 18, 2003
5:44:21 PM
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I know. However, the argument this person gave me was that God wouldn't allow it to happen, no matter what caused it. -----------------------
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstien
"Life is about the memories we make, and the duty to remember those who came before us." -Chipmunk Man
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Liquid
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 18, 2003
5:57:59 PM
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I have come up with my own "theory" on which to base the completeness of the galaxy....here goes
I believe in God and Evolution...how? you ask...i'll tell you.
How do we know that God's view of a "day" wasn't several billsion years? and how do we know that these 6 "days" weren't actually several billion years in and of themselves, and it actually took "God" to form the first cell, and took him that long to make the first humans possible?
there...whoever can point out flaws in that, go ahead, i'm all ears, but, i don't have much support from others :P -----------------------
Dark Jedi Knight Liquid of the Dark Jedi Order
Warrant Officer 1st Class of the Vast Empire Navy
ph34red by many
are you man enough? |
Cosmic
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 18, 2003
6:27:59 PM
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The problem with that is that the theory of Evolution is a theory that says organisms evolved from ancestral origins. With your theory, God, who has been in existance since forever, is pairing up with a theory that completely conflicts that idea. -----------------------
Cleric "Cosmic" Vor'soth
CoT/COL Cosmic/HCA-3/VEA/VE [OPE][OTH][OPA][EW1][CDS][IH][GS][SoS][CoH][PoC][MSM][IOC]
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Cleric "Cosmic" Vor'soth
SL/KPR Cosmic/Lion 1-1/mSSD Atrus/VEDJ/VE [VP][KC1][OAK]
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Raziel
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 19, 2003
6:21:43 PM
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Cos did you have a look at those links i put up? -----------------------
SL/SGMTRaziel/4SQD/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/ {EW1} {WoS} {VP} {IG}
Squad Leader - Squad4 Wraiths
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.
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Cosmic
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 19, 2003
2:59:23 PM
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No. -----------------------
Cleric "Cosmic" Vor'soth
CoT/COL Cosmic/HCA-3/VEA/VE [OPE][OTH][OPA][EW1][CDS][IH][GS][SoS][CoH][PoC][MSM][IOC]
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Cleric "Cosmic" Vor'soth
SL/KPR Cosmic/Lion 1-1/mSSD Atrus/VEDJ/VE [VP][KC1][OAK]
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Argon Viper
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 23, 2003
10:56:43 PM
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Well, I've been reading the bible, and let me show you the passage that really put me off. I'm not sure what version this is, but it's pretty similar in most of them, so look up Leviticus 26...
Reward for Obedience
1 " 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.
2 " 'Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the LORD .
3 " 'If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, 4 I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees of the field their fruit. 5 Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in safety in your land.
6 " 'I will grant peace in the land, and you will lie down and no one will make you afraid. I will remove savage beasts from the land, and the sword will not pass through your country. 7 You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. 8 Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you.
9 " 'I will look on you with favor and make you fruitful and increase your numbers, and I will keep my covenant with you. 10 You will still be eating last year's harvest when you will have to move it out to make room for the new. 11 I will put my dwelling place [1] among you, and I will not abhor you. 12 I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people. 13 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt so that you would no longer be slaves to the Egyptians; I broke the bars of your yoke and enabled you to walk with heads held high.
Punishment for Disobedience
14 " 'But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, 15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16 then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. 17 I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you.
18 " 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. 19 I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze. 20 Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of the land yield their fruit.
21 " 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22 I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.
23 " 'If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, 24 I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over. 25 And I will bring the sword upon you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands. 26 When I cut off your supply of bread, ten women will be able to bake your bread in one oven, and they will dole out the bread by weight. You will eat, but you will not be satisfied.
27 " 'If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. 31 I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings. 32 I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled. 33 I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. 34 Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it.
36 " 'As for those of you who are left, I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight. They will run as though fleeing from the sword, and they will fall, even though no one is pursuing them. 37 They will stumble over one another as though fleeing from the sword, even though no one is pursuing them. So you will not be able to stand before your enemies. 38 You will perish among the nations; the land of your enemies will devour you. 39 Those of you who are left will waste away in the lands of their enemies because of their sins; also because of their fathers' sins they will waste away.
40 " 'But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their fathers-their treachery against me and their hostility toward me, 41 which made me hostile toward them so that I sent them into the land of their enemies-then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sin, 42 I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. 43 For the land will be deserted by them and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them. They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees. 44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the LORD their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the LORD .' "
46 These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the LORD established on Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses.
BTW, weren't the dead sea scrolls debunked?
Anyways, as to the belief part of science, all you really have to believe is that it works. If religion is proven true, it will become science. Until then, science is merely the belief in what can be proven to work, that's why I believe (if that's the right word) in it. -----------------------
Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
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"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
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LostSoldier
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 23, 2003
11:31:23 PM
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Being around collegiate bible scholars and teachers for quite a while has tought me only ONE thing - noone can ever know. You can spend a lifetime trying to figure it out, but you'll never find some never-before-read Bible passage, or find some unknown hidden meaning that will prove everything once and for all. So I say, when it's time for me to know, i'll know. Until then... all I can do is hope. -----------------------
TRP/LCP LostSoldier/2SQD/1PLT/1COM/1BAT/1REG/VEA/VE |
Argon Viper
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RE: mysteries of the acient world
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June 24, 2003
10:28:34 AM
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Heh. I don't know, I hope sometimes, but sometimes, like when I read passages like that, I really hope there isn't. If he's anything like the bible, he could be diagnosed with multiple psychological disorders, and I don't think I want a schizoid (sp?) or worse god running the universe.
Also, another interesting thing I noticed in the bible that most people tend to ignore is that nowhere does it say that there are no other gods. It does not deny the existance of, say, the Hindu gods, it just commands Christians, Muslims, and Jews not to worship them. If everyone started realizing this, I think the world might have a little bit more peace in it... -----------------------
Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
Fallen Angel and Proud of It!
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung |
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