JMac
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RE: Survey
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August 9, 2002
7:03:06 PM
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Just a quick survey. I did this in school, and I will reveal the results of that later. The question is simple, though I would appreciate it if only Americans answer this at first. What system of government does America have? -----------------------
NTO/LCM JMac/ISD Overlord/Raptor 9/(=A=)(=SA=)(MC1)
You'll be sorry you messed with, the US of A. Cause we'll stick our boot up your ass, it's the American Way!
Viva la Toga!!!
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Riel Fury
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RE: Survey
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August 9, 2002
7:42:42 PM
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It's a democratic/socialist/republic. It contains elements of each....
Of course, in many ways, it's a dictatorship.
-----------------------
Rear Admiral Riel Fury
Navy Commander In Chief
Krath Prophet(ess), Dark Lord of the Krath, Cult Member in Elite Griffen Sect
Give in to your hatred. Give in to your anger. Give in to the Dark Side. |
Hammerman
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RE: Survey
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August 9, 2002
11:04:23 PM
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We're a democratic republic. We can't be too socialist because there are too many greedy capitalists behind congress.
-----------------------
PO1 Hammerman
FM/PO1 Hammerman/Viper 2-4/WingOne/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE(=A=) (=SA=)(=JPCA=)
"Its Hammertime!"
[This message has been edited by
Hammerman
(edited August 9, 2002
11:06:11 PM)]
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Liquid
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RE: Survey
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August 11, 2002
1:09:35 AM
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it's a republic!!! look at the pledge you said every morning in school
"and to the republic for which it stands, one nation UNDER GOD"
 -----------------------
ADJ:NTO/IA/EFL/WO1 Liquid/Aegis 3-1 (Aegis Nine)/Phoenix Wing/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)(=SA=)
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Argon Viper
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RE: Survey
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August 11, 2002
5:20:29 PM
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I pledge allegience
to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the REPUBLIC
for which is stands
one nation
indivisible
with liberty
and justice for all
And I emphasize that removing the "Under God" part from it doesn't matter, that part was added over 100 years after the pledge itself, and is unconstitutional whether people like it or not
Anyways, the US contains elements of democracy, dictatorship, monarchy, and feudalism, but is mostly a republic. -----------------------
Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
"The only thing that will never change is that everything will change" - Argon Viper |
Sabre
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RE: Survey
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August 11, 2002
5:43:27 PM
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Really? Since when in the Constitution did it say we're not allowed to mention god in the Pledge of Allegience? -----------------------
ADJ:NXO/FL/WO2 Gathon 'Sabre'/Kaph 3-1/Phoenix Wing/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE (=A=)(=SA=)
-Bachelor for life. |
JMac
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RE: Survey
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August 11, 2002
6:44:17 PM
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If our pledge is unconstitutional, then so is our Presidential Oath, our currency, and our court systems which determine whether or not something is unconstitutional, Aargon. We do not contain any elements of democracy on a federal level, nor do our presidents have dictatorial power, nor do we have fuedal lords. We are the text-book definition of a Republic. -----------------------
NTO/LCM JMac/ISD Overlord/Raptor 9/(=A=)(=SA=)(MC1)
"Court is in session, a verdict is in. No appeal on the docket today, just my own sin. The walls cold and pale, the cage made of steel. Screams fill the room, alone I drop and kneel. Silnce now the sound, my breath the only motion around. Demons cluttering around, my face showing no emotion. Shackled by my sins and expecting no return. here there is no pennance, my skin begins to burn."
~Creed
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Riel Fury
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RE: Survey
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August 11, 2002
9:48:20 PM
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What about the socialist tendencies? No one can deny them. Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, etc. All are elements of Socialism. -----------------------
Rear Admiral Riel Fury
Navy Commander In Chief
Krath Prophet(ess), Dark Lord of the Krath, Cult Member in Elite Griffen Sect
Give in to your hatred. Give in to your anger. Give in to the Dark Side. |
Lukas_Yuy
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RE: Survey
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August 12, 2002
9:02:53 AM
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Argon, I think it looks really wierd without the Under god part. I have always been used to saying it and now it looks as if I am going to have to get used to saying it without that part.
I guess that is just the way life works.. -----------------------
Lukas Yuy
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Argon Viper
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RE: Survey
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August 12, 2002
11:06:25 AM
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AMENDMENT I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
"Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of a religion."
In case that's not clear enough, monotheism is a religion. There is no way to modify that phrase to include monotheists, polytheists, and "godless", so it was dropped.
Anyways, that's Sabre's question.
As to JMac, yes they are unconstitutional, but I agree with them on the fact that they appeal the person's deepest beliefs in an attemtp to keep them honest. I have all faith that a Jewish President(if we ever have one...) would be allowed to swear on the Torah and a Muslim on the Qur'an.
Personally though, I think I'd swear in on "The Story of B"(read it sometime  ).
Riel, what exactly is wrong with socialism?
Nice way of thinking Lukas, I wish I thought like that...(no sarcasm) Then again, so does JMac and most of the rest of the VE -----------------------
Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
"The only thing that will never change is that everything will change" - Argon Viper |
JMac
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RE: Survey
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August 12, 2002
11:24:39 AM
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Lucas, you don't have to get used to it because it has been shot down. Aargon, by essentially removing God from every part of the government, isn't that basically supporting Atheism? -----------------------
NTO/LCM JMac/ISD Overlord/Raptor 9/(=A=)(=SA=)(MC1)
"Court is in session, a verdict is in. No appeal on the docket today, just my own sin. The walls cold and pale, the cage made of steel. Screams fill the room, alone I drop and kneel. Silnce now the sound, my breath the only motion around. Demons cluttering around, my face showing no emotion. Shackled by my sins and expecting no return. Here there is no pennance, my skin begins to burn."
~Creed
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Swomz
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RE: Survey
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August 12, 2002
10:58:58 PM
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We are a democratic government altho there is a republican party, it is still democratic.
I believe democratic means having the ability to vote or something -----------------------
SM/PFC Swomz/Dread Knight 2/Storm Platoon/1Company/1Battalion/Lorn IV/VEA
Private First Class Swomz
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Riel Fury
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RE: Survey
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August 12, 2002
11:20:24 PM
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Nothin at all is wrong with Socialism. I'm a practicing Socialist myself. I was just pointing out the fact that no one wants to admit the fact that the United States has a lot of Socialist tendencies to it due to the negative connotation it has. People are unenlightened and are afraid of things they do not understand. -----------------------
Rear Admiral Riel Fury
Navy Commander In Chief
Krath Prophet(ess), Dark Lord of the Krath, Cult Member in Elite Griffen Sect
Give in to your hatred. Give in to your anger. Give in to the Dark Side. |
Darkhawk
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RE: Survey
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August 12, 2002
11:38:43 PM
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Let's just not get into the whole pledge thing, please? You'll never get Argon to change his mind, so don't try.
The United States of America is not a real republic. We are a democracy. There are two kinds for democracy, although the names escape me this late at night. Anyway, we use the democratic system that one has to use when you have nearly 300 million citizens. I have no idea why we call ourselves a republic so much, because we aren't really one, in the truth to the word.
Oh, and in my opinion, we should all be Facists. -----------------------
ADJ:NTO/SCAP/EFM/COM Darkhawk/Aegis 1-3 /mSSD Atrus - ISD II Devastator/DEF/OFF/VEN/VE/(=A=)(=SA=)(=JCPA=)(=SCPA=)(=FCO=)[LoC][BRC][VC:Ebony]
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JMac
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RE: Survey
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August 13, 2002
6:35:19 AM
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We are not a democracy. A democracy is a system of government in which everyone votes on every issue. That is true democracy. We are too big to be a democracy. Instead, we are a REPUBLIC. A republic is a system of government in which elected officials make the decisions.
Reil is right though. We do have a lot of socialist tendenccies and practices, even though we do not have a socialist government per se. I am personally against socialism, but that is niether here nor there, and it is a topic for a different conversation.
-----------------------
NTO/LCM JMac/ISD Overlord/Raptor 9/(=A=)(=SA=)(MC1)
"Court is in session, a verdict is in. No appeal on the docket today, just my own sin. The walls cold and pale, the cage made of steel. Screams fill the room, alone I drop and kneel. Silnce now the sound, my breath the only motion around. Demons cluttering around, my face showing no emotion. Shackled by my sins and expecting no return. Here there is no pennance, my skin begins to burn."
~Creed
[This message has been edited by
JMac
(edited August 13, 2002
6:37:20 AM)]
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Fury
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RE: Survey
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August 13, 2002
9:07:56 AM
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Back to Sabre's question: I didn't realize the Pledge of Allegiance was in and of itself a law.
But yes, that's probably just adding fuel to a fire. Darkhawk is right; this conversation effectively ended in a no-contest days ago.
However accepting we ever get, I still don't see a member of the Church of the Sub-Genius swearing an oath on any of the Books of Bob. -----------------------
XO/LTC Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
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Bear
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RE: Survey
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August 13, 2002
11:31:16 AM
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Re: Democracy meaning the right to vote
Re: Democracy being when every person votes on every issue
Let me speak..
Democracy is the combined right to vote, to say your problems without fear of oppression, to form your own political party, to stand for election, to join a pressure group, etc. It is basically your right to participate in politics - every one of us can (I am a junior member of the Scottish Socialist Party, funnily enough ).
Democracy also means your right to NOT vote (this is where it gets confusing..). By not voting, you may show that your views are not represented in the issue you are voting on (i.e. a Communist having to choose between a Republican or a Democrat). I'm not sure if its compulsory to vote in the US, but I know its not in the UK - and not voting is part of your democratic right to take part in your countrys politics.
What is a Republic? Right, way out of my depth.. but heres what I think..
In countrys such as the UK, Norway, Holland etc, the Head of State is the Monarch. They are not elected.
A Republic is when the Head of State IS elected to run the country.
(Pulled straight from dictionary.com )
Sooo..
In the US of A, the Head of State is elected - this means that the society is a Republic.
In the UK, the Head of State is not elected - this means that the society is a Monarchy.
In the US of A, the people have the right to participate in politics in many ways - this means the government is a Democracy.
In the UK, it is the same - so the government is a Democracy.
So, according to my calculations, the American government is a Democracy, but the country is a Republic - it is a Democratic Republic.
So then the British Government is a Democratic Monarchy, because it is not a Republic.
I think.
Ok, I've confused myself.. -----------------------
Captain Aaron "Bear" Le'pue, Naval Instructor & VE Today Chief Editor
~~~
INS/CAP Aaron "Bear" Le'pue/Flight School/Training Fleet/ISD II Crusader/VEN/VE
(=A=) (=SA=) (=MA=) (=FOCE=) (=JCPA=) (=SCPA=) [BRC] [BRC] [LSM] [LoC] [NDM]
~~~
Bear : calumfrew@hotmail.com
Vast Empire Today : vetoday@writeme.com |
Sabre
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RE: Survey
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August 13, 2002
2:51:52 PM
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"Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of a religion."
Read it again Argon.
"Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of a religion."
This segment of the Constitution prevents Congress from creating an official state religion. Essentially this boils down to, "We're not going to establish a church like England did."
This in no way prevents Congress from including "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegience since most Christian religions, Judaism, and Islam were all established well before the United States. Separation of Church and State means the government can't create a religion and impose it on everyone and since no one is forcing you to say "Under God", don't say it. This is a predominately Christian nation and since we all know that the democratic system is based on doing the will of the majority through voting, we have every right to include "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegience.
God Bless the USA.
( P.S. Have you ever wondered why that's in the imperative form, making it a command rather than a statement? ) -----------------------
ADJ:NXO/FL/WO2 Gathon 'Sabre'/Kaph 3-1/Phoenix Wing/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE (=A=)(=SA=)
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Bear
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RE: Survey
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August 13, 2002
3:06:58 PM
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" the democratic system is based on doing the will of the majority through voting"
Tell that to someone from Florida 
-----------------------
Captain Aaron "Bear" Le'pue, Naval Instructor & VE Today Chief Editor
~~~
INS/CAP Aaron "Bear" Le'pue/Flight School/Training Fleet/ISD II Crusader/VEN/VE
(=A=) (=SA=) (=MA=) (=FOCE=) (=JCPA=) (=SCPA=) [BRC] [BRC] [LSM] [LoC] [NDM]
~~~
Bear : calumfrew@hotmail.com
Vast Empire Today : vetoday@writeme.com
[This message has been edited by
Bear
(edited August 13, 2002
3:07:52 PM)]
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Argon Viper
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RE: Survey
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August 13, 2002
3:22:15 PM
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LOL!! Bear got it before I could
Anyways, to DH's comment about me:
"Which is more of a failure, failing to do, or failing to even try?" - Argon Viper
Anyways, on to Sabre(sorry, I'm going easiest to hardest here, and, as usual, JMac argues the best )...
It says it will not respect the establishment of a religion. Now, all those religions you mentioned are established, and are therefore *gasp* establishments. Therefore, congress cannot make a law that respects their establishment over any others, established or not.
Find me an unestablished religion(Agnosticism is a good one) and I'll be fine with it
Riel, I hope the socialist party wins the election some day
JMac, as usual the best among my adversaries, well met 
However, the word you're looking for is not atheist(which isn't an established religion in any case, read my response to Sabre) but secular. Secular is a system in which religion is removed entirely from government in order to make sure that no religious group is left in the crapper.
As for religion and church seperation...
If you really need a God to tell you that we need a government, then you don't need a government. If you actually want one, let it stand on its own merits, and if they both need to lean on each other, then I say let them fall. Personally though, I think a government is needed on its own, and that religion is only for those that want it.
"This has been another episode of the 'Argon Viper agitating show', thank you to those listeners that regularly... *gack*"
::sniper bullet penetrates the studio at takes out the tape recorder::
"Whew, glad that's not me, right?" -----------------------
Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
"The only thing that will never change is that everything will change" - Argon Viper |
Sabre
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RE: Survey
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August 13, 2002
3:54:43 PM
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Establishment is not used to represent the already organized religions. This prevents a figure with significant politcal power from assuming a mantle of religious power as well. The writers of the Constitution did not want a conflict such as that which arose between Henry VIII and the Pope when Henry VIII became a religious leader. That's why that phrase is in there, to prevent an international conflict.
When the United States declared war against England, George Washington and the other founding fathers had the monumental task of turning a bunch of hillbilly colonists into a military force capable of bringing the fight to a highly trained English Army. Now, if you're trying to put a together a large army and you need to appeal to large number of people who are otherwise indifferent, what do you do? Well, since the country was and is primarily Christian, you appeal to their particular religious beliefs. The same thing happened when "Under God" was originally added to the Pledge. Congress was trying to bring together the country to form a united front. It is Congress's job to look after the best interests of the country, that's why we have the Elastic Clause in the Constitution which states that Congress can make any law that it feels are in the best interests of the country. Since Congress added the "Under God" to the pledge, seems like that is perfectly Constitutional to me. And if the issue remains unresolved, put it to a vote. -----------------------
ADJ:NXO/FL/WO2 Gathon 'Sabre'/Kaph 3-1/Phoenix Wing/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE (=A=)(=SA=)
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Liquid
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RE: Survey
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August 13, 2002
5:37:23 PM
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Argon, the government has not made it a law for you to say the pledge of allegiance, if it did, i know about 50 people that would be looking at big frickin' fines right now. if you don't like it, don't say it. besides, if we took the word "God" out of everything, yes, we would be supporting a religion, and therefore, we can't have anything to do with government. The judge that ruled that unconstitutional, was an idiot. Plain and simple. The guy that had it changed, was just spoiling his daughter. -----------------------
ADJ:NTO/IA/EFL/WO1 Liquid/Aegis 3-1 (Aegis Nine)/Phoenix Wing/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)(=SA=)
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JMac
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RE: Survey
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August 13, 2002
7:26:01 PM
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He was not spoiling his daughter, she liked the pledge. He was using his daughter. But that is now a non-issue as the pledge is unchanged. Anyway, yes bear, you described democracy, but not A democracy. In a democratic government, the people have the ultimate say in every issue. That is not the case. The people elect officials to make the laws, thus having a REPUBLIC. The official system of government of the United States is a REPUBLIC!!! -----------------------
NTO/LCM JMac/ISD Overlord/Raptor 9/(=A=)(=SA=)(MC1)
"Court is in session, a verdict is in. No appeal on the docket today, just my own sin. The walls cold and pale, the cage made of steel. Screams fill the room, alone I drop and kneel. Silnce now the sound, my breath the only motion around. Demons cluttering around, my face showing no emotion. Shackled by my sins and expecting no return. Here there is no pennance, my skin begins to burn."
~Creed
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Argon Viper
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RE: Survey
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August 15, 2002
6:12:26 PM
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Well, let's go one at a time...
Sabre, trying to interpret the actual will of the founding fathers is an excersize in philosophy and psychology. For now, let's just go literally shall we?
Liquid, they have made it a law for the pledge to be said in public schools. Now, I could care less whether they say it in the military or even the ROTC, those are people they are free to order around all they like, and they can do whatever they want until those people start complaining. However, a public school is supposed to be secular. Secular, in this case, means that no religion of any type is allowed into the classroom beyond what must be taught in order to understand history.
JMac, it's about time somebody admitted it -----------------------
Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
"The only thing that will never change is that everything will change" - Argon Viper |
JMac
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RE: Survey
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August 17, 2002
3:47:16 PM
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Being completely secular is being atheist. That is endorsing a religion. And what exactly did I admit?
-----------------------
NTO/LCM JMac/ISD Overlord/Raptor 9/(=A=)(=SA=)(MC1)
"Court is in session, a verdict is in. No appeal on the docket today, just my own sin. The walls cold and pale, the cage made of steel. Screams fill the room, alone I drop and kneel. Silnce now the sound, my breath the only motion around. Demons cluttering around, my face showing no emotion. Shackled by my sins and expecting no return. Here there is no pennance, my skin begins to burn."
~Creed
[This message has been edited by
JMac
(edited August 17, 2002
3:51:09 PM)]
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Argon Viper
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RE: Survey
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September 1, 2002
11:45:23 PM
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Well, I'm back to bug you again
Anyways, what you admitted is that we're a republic, and not a democracy that everyone seems to be so proud of.
Anyways, down to the point, secular may be athiest (in fact, it does seem remarkably similar to athiesm), but the fact remains that athiesm is not an official religion by any stretch of the imagination. If we had a church we went to once a week, a place we prayed to five times a day, a specific afterlife we went to upon death, or even a common belief, then we'd be established. Howevet, the fact remains that athiests are as divided among themselves (ourselves) as Islam and Judaism (two sister religions) are amongst each other. It's not an official religion, and for that reason, having it in school does not violate the first ammendment (which having any religion in school does). Enjoy -----------------------
Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
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Liquid
ComNet Member
[VE-DJO] Dark Jedi Knight (DJK)
[VE-NAVY] 1st Lieutenant (1LT)
Post Number: 612
Total Posts: 679
Joined: Feb 2002
Status: Offline
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RE: Survey
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September 2, 2002
10:11:56 AM
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Argon, they make it a law for the pledge to be used in schools, not to force you to say it. -----------------------
ADJ:NTO/IA/FL/WO1 Liquid/Aegis 3-1 (Aegis Nine)/Phoenix Wing/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)(=SA=)
CM/DJK Liquid /Dark Knight 1-3/Lion Sect/VEDJ/(VP)
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