I think its an just a reason for the media to go after the church.  Yeah it needs to be known...but its something that doesn't need to be annouced to the world...expecially as hastily as it has been.  Not that I agree or disagree with it.  But on the bright side at least they are TRYING to do something about it.  Last year, (I won't mention the church, but those who know where I live know which one I'm talking about), there was a case exactly like what is happening to the catholic church.  A bishop was accused of sexual abuse to many child members of his area.  What happened?  They (being victims and witnesses) were paid off to be quiet.  3 million dollars worth to be exact.  So all they did was cover it up.  My point here....It happens to every single religion in the world today...there is no getting around it.  I for one am glad about the catholic church's opinions and their action so far...however I'd like to see more results.  However I do completely blame the media with their terrible perception of the events that have come about.  They are quick to point fingers.  All I can say is don't believe everything you hear... there is my 2 cents   ----------------------- -=:General Anakin:=- Executive Officer for the Vast Empire XO/GN Anakin/HC-2/Lotaith/VE [SCP][CDS][IOC][CM-SS][LoCx23] YAPI!!!!! E-mail 

I for one think that this is a good thing.  Not the events that caused it, and I think that the media is going overboard on it cause they like beating on the church, but still, the Catholic Church has needed a good purging for a very long time.  I believe it will be much like a forest fire.  This will clear out the dead brush, and what is left will be much stronger for it.  There are several factors, as I see it, that caused this.  The first is that the bishops were more concerned with protecting themselves and their reputations then with actually doing God's work.  Another is the "modernization of the church."  THe church started to become more politically correct in its actions, which goes directly against what it was founded on and what the bible says.  For instince, there are more and more homosexuals entering the priesthood.  That goes completely against church teaching and the bible.  God wasted 3 cities because of homosexuality!  And that is just one way that the church began slipping.  As this started to happen, the church became more "accepting" in their beliefs and was corrupted. On another note, I do not think that the church creates pediophiles.  I think that they became priests to gain easy access.  Who would have suspected a priest three years ago?
 
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"Pain is weakness leaving the body" - US Marines

EFM/PO2 Liquid/Aegis 1-3/Wing1/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)(=SA=)

Actually JMac, a lot of people would have suspected this years ago.  I just think the media got told by the government to quit talking about our inefficient airport security program and go bug the religious types for awhile But on a more serious note, you'll notice that this problem is only coming to a head here in the US.  Why?  A couple reasons I think.  This is the arm of the Church that is most likely to stray from papal teachings (so much for all those fundamentalists calling us the most holy of nations - yes, you non-Americans can have a chuckle at that).  Plus, there has been a shortage of priests and nuns for years.  They really are in a pinch to take what they can get and try to spread out their resources as far as they can. Does this mean we should start letting priests marry?  I dunno.  But let's take this a step further.  Does this mean we should let nuns marry?  Are you sociologically prepared to see maternity habits?  I don't really have a formed opinion on this, but I do know that even if it takes importing priests from other nations, a church should be the last place a parishioner, adult or child, should feel threatened.
 
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XO/LTC Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
Company Commander
Shopkeeper - Imperial Center

/me smacks Raz.  Don't rub it in  As to religion, my belief is simple.  You can make someone believe that an all powerful God , that this God should be worshipped and obeyed without question.  At that point, you convince them that you are the one who interprets this God.  How much power do you have now? I'm sure Raz enjoyed that    To the rest of you, have fun 
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"How boring life would be if everyone felt the same way we do..." - Argon Viper
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

scuse me while i put down all appropriate smileys: :P
 
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SL/SGMTRaziel/4SQD/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/ {EW1}
Squad Leader - Squad4 Wraiths

LOL!!!  Nice point Raz.  Also, JMac, the simple fact is that 'good' and 'evil' are completely relative, not only in relation to each other, but also compared to what another person calls 'good' or 'evil'.  For example, the entire US is united(mostly, I'm an obvious exception...) in the belief that terrorism is 'evil'.  However, look to the Middle East, and you find that most of them think that terrorism is completely 'good'.  Once again, we have a difference in what is 'good' and 'evil'.  If you want another couple hundred examples, then ask   
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"How boring life would be if everyone felt the same way we do..." - Argon Viper
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

JMac, you completely missed my point.  Things like "the world is flat", I will agree are completely wrong.  However, this is because they have been proven.  Things like "beagles are the greatest type of dog" have not.  This means that we have to be tolerant of others' points of view.  For example, the Aztecs believed that pricking themselves and burning the hearts of captured enemies was right, in fact, it was mandatory to them.  However, by today's standards, that it wrong.  Yet we have no absolute proof, do we?  Once again, let me reiterate that a religious text is only proof if you actually believe in that specific religion, so don't bother citing it to me.  Until you prove to me, logically and mathematically that something is definitely 'wrong' or 'right', I won't believe you.  Until then, I will continue to believe that right and wrong are completely based on your opinion.  For a better example, you think I'm wrong here, yet I think I'm right.  Can either side prove their position beyond a doubt?  No.  The fact that I can prove mine to within fractions of a doubt is irrelevant, the fact that your position still has that fraction of possibility means that I will respect it without question.  However, that won't stop me from arguing with it  "The Mad Philosopher"   ----------------------- Argon Viper IW COL Argon Viper{ret} "History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn "How boring life would be if everyone felt the same way we do..." - Argon Viper "Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

ter·ror·ism  n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. freedom fighter n. One engaged in armed rebellion or resistance against an oppressive government. The people in the Middle East (those whom, apparently, think terrorism is "good") are making maximum use of their available resources to fight for what they have fought for for a long time. The Palestinians (I assume those are the ones who apparently think terrorism is "good"?) are using the only weapons at their disposal to fight for their cause - they have already shown they have a cause, by electing a president to lead them, both politically and millitarily. They are not a person (see definition of terrorism) or group, but a race and a nationality, who used to live in that area, and now have no say in the way their country is run. A government which has no respect for their wishes, and does not allow them to talk in a political sense (Arial Sharon refusing to speak to Arafat under any circumstances) controls their land - from their viewpoint, this government is oppressive, and they are fighting for the basic human right to have a say. Therefore, under the definition from dictionary.com, the Palestians are Freedom Fighters. Al Quada belong to no country/race, so are terrorists (under the definition). On the other hand, the IRA belong to a country (the Irish Republic), and have a political wing (which negotiates very effectively with the British government), so are neither terrorists nor freedom fighters. Basically, the people in the middle east do not get a say in the politics of how their home is run, and are continuously shunted around, attacked and oppressed - their best weapon is to strap explosives to themselves and to run into crowded cafes, much like General Grant in the US Civil War, whos best weapon was to destroy as much of the enemy infrastructure as possible, by burning, pillaging etc. Thats my views on that   ----------------------- CMDR/CAP Aaron 'Bear' Le'pue/Flight School 1/Training Fleet/Plt Saratoga/VEN/VE (=A=) (=SA=) (=FOCE=) (=JCPA=) [BRC] [BRC] [LSM] [LoC] [NDM] VE Today Chief Editor ----------------------- Bear - [email protected] Vast Empire Today - [email protected]

JMac, I will tolerate everyone and everything so long as they do what they truly believe is right.  To do otherwise would be completely wrong.  What you're missing here is my definition of tolerance.  You are correct that I would take maximum action against anyone who lashes out against me, but the difference between you and me is that you will not even attempt to understand their reasoning.  "We cannot change anything until we accept it.  Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses." Carl G Jung I accept the fact that there are people who will do things like that, and, in doing so, I have a far better chance of stopping it than you do.  My belief is that these countries that continually condemn actions and beliefs will fall, for the simple fact that they will become unable to defend themselves against them.  I agree with what Bear said about the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists, however, I believe that there's a deeper root to it. Strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing it up in a public area is terrorism no matter how you look at it, however, there's a difference with the reason the Palestinians do it.  They are doing because there is simply no other way to fight.  Any weapons they try to get into the area are intercepted by Israeli soldiers, and they would be suicidal to go head to head with what is arguably the best military in the world. Going back to my original point, I'd like to compare two reactions to this recent event: You immediately decided that since it was terrorism, it was evil.  I remember pretty much the day it happened, you posted something about how we should crush the Palestinians beneath an iron fist.  If you doubt it, read your posts on the "Middle East" topic. Bear, on the other hand, has looked more deeply into the topic, even looking up the definition in order to more deeply understand the problem.  In this way, he has seen another aspect to the Palestinian identity that you managed to miss. Bear, I'd like to take this moment to thank you for doing so, it added quite a bit to my understanding of the situation. Anyways, the simple fact is that I will tolerate anyone who remains true to their own beliefs.  Whether I will try to stop or punish them is another idea.  However, with that tolerance, I have a better chance at doing so, should I choose to do so.  If you doubt me, read "The Heir to the Empire" series and ask me if Thrawn did all that by just sending ISDs(yes I know, not real.  But it has a lot of remarkable parrallels to reality). Anyway, that's my rant for today.  Enjoy   
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"How boring life would be if everyone felt the same way we do..." - Argon Viper
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

JMac, now that I know your definition of evil a little better, I think I understand that a little bit more.  Also, if that is your definition of evil, you have to call the Israelis the same.  During the course of their newest operation, they have not only killed people, but they have destroyed everything that thousands of others owned, rendering them homeless and broke.  The fact that they didn't kill those people doesn't make them any different from the Palestinians for the simple fact that they took away their life. As to tolerance, I never said that I would tolerate a wife beater or a child beater.  The simple fact is that the act of beating a wife or child is totally against the biological process, and therefore, deep down in the deepest part of his consiousness, he doesn't believe that he is right.  That is why I won't tolerate that.  However, someone who gets into a barfight is simply giving vent to the biological instincts that all males have to eliminate the competition.  Therefore, I will "tolerate" him.  That doesn't mean I will allow him to continue, I never included that in my definition.  However, I will not insist that he get life in jail or anything.  Also, I will try to understand him, in the hopes that I can convince him in his consious mind that what he did was wrong(my belief, not the universal right/wrong). Also, I'd like to ask you(quick question, just a one time only thing to lead into something else), how to you feel about the attack at Pearl Harbor? [OOC: I would like to appologize for my earlier comment that you replied(on why you dislike the Palestinians due to the label of terrorism).  I realize now that that was pretty intolerant of me, and I hope that you will forgive that slip...]   ----------------------- Argon Viper IW COL Argon Viper{ret} "History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn "How boring life would be if everyone felt the same way we do..." - Argon Viper "Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

I completely disagree.  The prblem as I see it is the definition of truth.  Truth is true, that is all there is.  Truth can not be based on belief, it must always be so.  Things that are based on opinions are other opinions.  Science is, however, part religion in the whole theory bit.  Some scientific facts are true.  It is true that if two humans mate the woman will not give birth to a parakeet.  Other things have not been proven, but have come into such popular belief that they are held as true.  This is not so. Argon, I believe what you are referring to is Jenin.  The Israwlis did not just go into the town and destroy everything for the sake of going into the town and destroying everything.  They were moving through and were being fired upon by snipers.  The snipers were hiding in the buildings, so the Israelis took out the buildings.  They found weapon stockpiles, bomb factories, etc.  This was not just an attack on a civillian town.  Furthermore, what were the snipers doing in the town in the first place.  They fired first, and they had to know that Israel would fire back.  One thing about Isral is this: they are surrounded by nations that want them gone, so to compensate for this they are extremely reactive and thus avoid showing any weakness.  IF you spit in their face, they will use a fire-hose on yours.  I am not saying that the Israelis were blameless.  Their soldiers have killed some civillians that were caught in the crossfire,(these soldiers were then brought up on charges.)  And yes, they went overboard in some areas.  Still, I believe that the Palestinians have done far more damage.  When three United States buildings were hit by terrorism, we razed the country and toppled a government.  Israel is hit every day, and they have lost 20x more then the USA has, and yet all the nations of the world are contiually restraining them.  This is not right. As for Pearl Harbor, I think it was a brilliant military gambit.  They caught us with our pants down, and they took out most of our Naval strength.  It made them our enemies, and it was a cause for war, but I respect their actions and admire their cunning.  As I've said before, if Al Queada had just hit the Pentagon, I would have still called them enemies and wanted them hunted down, but I would have respected them as freedom fighters and would not have considered them evil.  They delibrately targeted innocents, though, and that makes them evil, and death is too gooda penalty for them.
 
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[army] Fishman
EFM/PO2 JMac/Aegis 3-4/Aegis 12/(=A=)(MC1)
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
"In order to find his equal an Irishman is forced to talk to God."
- Braveheart
Aegis 4ever!!!

[OOC: Sorry, the thing screwed up and posted twice for some reason...]

Ummm, Dai.  It's Galileao Galilae(I think, but I know I got closer than you did), and you're right that he stood up to the established "Truth".  However, you forgot to mention that those who did as he did(Copernicus for example) were often prosecuted by people who could not handle the fact that they were wrong.  Humanity doesn't seem to tolerate that very well... As for JMac, you may well be right, your version of truth may be completely true.  However, keep in mind that over two thousand years ago, the Romans may have been right, with their gladiators, their violent Gods, and their long orgy's.  All I'm saying is, Truth does not have a very good track record of staying true  "If we knew everything, why would be bother to seek what we already knew, but if we knew nothing, how would we even ask a question" - Plato, on knowledge(Got that one from Daishi/Kuroishi himself  )
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"How boring life would be if everyone felt the same way we do..." - Argon Viper
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

Again, we are dealing with the nature of truth.  I am stating things as I see them to be true.  I may be completely wrong for all I know.  I don't think I am, but I know I could very well be.  That doesn't mean that truth itself is changeable, just that humans are easily swayed and mislead.  Truth is truth, it never changes.  Something can't be true one day and false another.  All that changes is our understanding of the truth.  It doesn't mean that truth is easily fallable, it just means that we are.
 
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[army] Fishman
EFM/PO2 JMac/Aegis 3-4/Aegis 12/(=A=)(MC1)
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
"In order to find his equal an Irishman is forced to talk to God."
- Braveheart
Aegis 4ever!!!

Hehehehe, anyone ever seen a hypercube?  Try this: A zero dimensional cube is a dot. Take that dot and stretch it out in one direction and you get a line, a one dimensional cube. Take that line and stretch it out at 90 degrees to the original stretch and you get a square, a 2D cube. Take that square and stretch it out at the other 90 degree spot and you get a real 3D cube. Take that cube and stretch it out...  4 physical dimensions.  It's really trippy, and it pretty much proves Dai's point since we seem to be very into believing that there are only 3 dimensions. Now, don't get me into the temporal dimensions, those are really fun    For example, an all powerful God, even if he lived literally forever, would see, hear, and experience everything in his life within an indescribably fraction of a second and then cease to exist according to most current temporal theory.  This is because he can see in all temporal dimensions, past, present, and future. Now, think about the 26 dimensional world of string theory, or the 10 dimensional world proposed by another one, or the 12 dimensional one. Really challenges your idea of truth doesn't it? See why I love science and math?  You're never bored 
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"How boring life would be if everyone felt the same way we do..." - Argon Viper
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung