All right, I assume that most of you have heard of or don't care enough about the fact that the words "Under God" have been removed from the US Pledge of Alliegence.  Anyways, I found an interesting article here: http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=220 Anyways, those of you who debate here know my religious orientation, so take a guess at which side it takes  If you still can't tell, here's some nice quotes from it: "Ask yourself this: why is it so important to public life (and I think it clearly is) that atheists remain politely invisible, thank you very much?  I, naturally, have a hypothesis I rather like that explains this, besides explaining the angry raving of the masses of rogues who stood up to denounce the clear and simple justice pronounced by an honest judge.  I think, if you're honest, the reason is clear enough:  I think the only reason this is such a big deal, the only reason those words are there in the first place is an unvoiced, but unmistakable fear.  That fear is: that the only reason anyone believes in this god is they think everyone else does." - AJ Milne "First, note that hatred of atheists is nothing new. It's actually common to at least three of the world's major religions, and we find records of it thousands of years old. In the sacred books of Hinduism, of Islam, of Christianity, and of Judaism, we find this common thread. (Atheists might take this as a minor point of pride, insofar as evidence is excellent they may well be one of the more ancient of belief systems; apparently they were around to annoy even the writer of the Psalms.)" - AJ Milne Enjoy 
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
"The only thing that will never change is that everything will change" - Argon Viper

What JMac said. btw, does anyone know WHY they changed it? I do. ----------------------- TRP/LCPL the3djedi/3SQD/1PLT/1COM/1BAT/1RGT/VEA/VE Rank: Corporal My site: http://the3Djedi.150m.com Squad: Raiders Joined: March 28, 2002 Age: 14

He was sworn in on the Bible when he was testifying in court though. Not that it did a lot of good.
 
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ADJ:NXO/FL/WO2 Gathon 'Sabre'/Kaph 3-1/Phoenix Wing/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE  (=A=)(=SA=)
-Bachelor for life.

Your friendly European friends point of view.. When I went to an American school in the Middle East, there was a US Flag at the front. The teacher said that under American law we were supposed to go up to it every morning and pledge our allegiance to the United States, but since there were so many foreigners (about 1 foreigner for every 2 Americans in my class), that school was exempt. This is fine; I've sworn an allegiance to Queen (!!!) and country out of school, so swearing an oath is nothing new. What tends to look.. hmm.. controversial.. about the American pledge is the part about God. As far as I know, it is: "One nation under God" Sitting outside the great house of America in the garden of the great house of Europe, I can say that from my viewpoint, this line implies that America is "the chosen place". The line implies to the rest of the world that the United States thinks that God chose it, and the rest of us are simply heathens. This does understandably upset several people - the society of some European countries is based around a monarchy (UK, Norway, Holland, Italy etc), which ties it into religion. Religion also plays big parts in shaping the society of other countries (France, Germany, Spain etc), although the church itself has very little power. "One nation under God" upsets Europeans a tiny bit - liberalism (in this case, our "We couldn't care less about those yankees" attitude helps somewhat) makes sure it doesn't make a huge impact. However, as much as we try to say it, Western Liberalism is not the "normal" society for the world. More people live (quite happily, I might add) in less liberal societies, which are shaped less by liberalism and more by religion - Islamic countries being by far the best examples. Let me bring in a quote from a US General when asked by CNN why the Air Force was attacking Afghanistan. The reporter asked: "When will you capture Bin Laden?" To which the general replied: "I don't really think thats the issue here" What was the issue? A lot of people said it was to protect womens rights; some people said it was to get rid of a recessive regime. In the eyes of a lot of Muslims, the Americans were attacking Afghanistan not for oil, not to stop terrorism, but to force their society beliefs on everyone else.. I'm starting to go off subject here, but lets bring something new in. Why do so many Muslims hate America? There are two reasons.. 1) Religion - the belief that an attack on one Muslim is an attack on Islam 2) Sex - More specifically, liberalism. Muslims dislike greatly anything sexual - a porn magazine would give them a heart attack. FHM would give them a stroke. A lingerie advert would give them a seizure. (When I lived in the Middle East, everytime I went into the country I had to declare any magazines and videos I had - anything remotely sexual was ripped out.) Basically, the world objects to "One nation under God" because it gives the idea that the US is Gods country, which at best is not taking other beliefs into account, and at worst is blatantly racist. Athiesm? Its got nothing to do with that - its about respecting other beliefs. America, whether it wants to or not, has an example to set, and subtle things like making five year olds believe that the US is the "Promised Land" is setting the wrong example. Maybe now the US has banned that, Muslim countries will too - the oaths young children (trainee terrorists) have to take in "Terrorist Schools" are modelled almost exactly on the American oaths - which, as far as I can see, are making 16 year old Americans flock to the Marine Corps recruiting offices.
 
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        Captain Aaron "Bear" Le'pue, Naval Instructor & VE Today Chief Editor
                                                        ~~~
     INS/CAP Aaron "Bear" Le'pue/Flight School/Training Fleet/ISD II Crusader/VEN/VE
(=A=) (=SA=) (=MA=) (=FOCE=) (=JCPA=) (=SCPA=) [BRC] [BRC] [LSM] [LoC] [NDM]
                                                        ~~~
                                      Bear : [email protected]
                             Vast Empire Today : [email protected]

Not that I have one opinion on this one a certain way or another, but we have never used the concept of "one nation under God" to show we are a "chosen" nation or any such clap trap. Well...it was never intended to be used that way.  Can't claim our doofus-in-chief has not done this a few dozen times. This has been projected onto us by people that don't seem to like us much anyway. The real reason it was done was to show that we have our mandate as a nation not my man, or king or queen, or commonwealth, but by a higher power.  The whole "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" bit you know.  We are a nation (as I have always understood this) because we use God-given rights to form a federated union, not because some remote King said we could. That would be the reason "under God" is prevelant, to disguish us from all the monarchies running around at the time...and to justify the revolt we got into in order to make this country independent.  What you seem to be angry at Bear, is not that we are raising ourselves above everyone else, but that we continue to distinguish ourselves from your form of government. Unfortunately, the origin of this practice seems to have been lost on both sides of the Atlantic...or at least on our current administration.   ----------------------- XO/LTC Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC] Company Commander Shopkeeper - Imperial Center

Well said Fury.  You said what I am currently too sleep deprived to say.(28 hours and still going!!!)
 
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NTO/LCM JMac/ISD Overlord/Raptor 9/(=A=)(=SA=)(MC1)

You'll be sorry you messed with, the US of A.  Cause we'll stick our boot up your ass, it's the American Way!

Viva la Toga!!!

yeah im so proud of my monarch/head of church hahahahahahaha sorry
 
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SL/SGMTRaziel/4SQD/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/ {EW1} {WoS} {VP}
Squad Leader - Squad4 Wraiths
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.

Now Daishi, I never said this country never tried to force morality or belief systems on others. For someone who worries about being taken out of context, you sure do take liberties with the practice. I merely said the origin of the god usage in general (Constitution, Bill of Rights, money, etc.) comes from a philosophical system from way back when Franklin was chasing French skirts and Jefferson was sleeping with the help. Yes, we all know well and good that our parents (for some of us), grandparents, et al, did not have to do this early on.  It was basically Ike's big push to enforce morality on this country (which is what the 50s are all about: remember that the next time a politician tries to tell you otherwise). But yes, when we get bogged down over words in the Pledge of Allegiance or 5 million dollar settlements over coffee at McDonald's, it detracts from things like what's in our water, who are we trying to bomb today, and where the hell IS Dick Cheney anyway? Bread and circuses for everyone.  Enjoy it.   ----------------------- XO/LTC Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC] Company Commander Shopkeeper - Imperial Center

i'd like to know how we're "forcing" people to say the pledge...are we being punished if we don't? no, i don't say the pledge, and i have not been in trouble once for it, sure, i have to stand during the pledge, but, i, in the end, have the ultimate decision of whether or not i'm gonna say the "damned" words. "One nations under God" i don't see what's so frickin' wrong with the word "God" i may be a christian, but, that doesn't mean that i have to make everyone that is around me a christian, sure, my actions are supposed to be affirming of Christ, and my body is a temple of the Lord. but, that's saying more than i should, and, getting off subject. Anywho, the majority of the nation wouldn't have given a damn whether or not it said "God" in the pledge, and most were just fine either saying it or not. the only reason this guy did anything was either out of pure boredom, or, his little girl's a spoiled little b*tch. i'm betting that it's the latter.   (btw: 200th post!!!) ----------------------- ADJ:NTO/IA/EFL/WO1 Liquid/Aegis 3-1 (Aegis Nine)/Phoenix Wing/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)(=SA=) TRN/JRN Liquid/TBA/TBA/VEDJ/(VP) I am the TO's Adjutant, and the FS's instructor's assistant. Any questions? please direct them to: Me Aegis ||| Naval Academy ||| Flight School

so...i was correct in assuming that it was the latter.
 
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ADJ:NTO/IA/EFL/WO1 Liquid/Aegis 3-1 (Aegis Nine)/Phoenix Wing/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)(=SA=)

TRN/JRN Liquid/TBA/TBA/VEDJ/(VP)

I am the TO's Adjutant, and the FS's instructor's assistant. Any questions? please direct them to: Me

Aegis ||| Naval Academy ||| Flight School

The fact of the matter is no one gives a damn about what oaths they give.  Personally, if I pledge alliegance to something, I take it VERY seriously.  At school, I stood up and proudly said the pledge because damnit, I'm proud to be an american, and I will serve my country in any way they so need.  That doesn't mean I don't see flaws in the system, I see them every day.  I listen to Anti-Flag and get pissed off at the CIA daily.  One nation under god... a higher power.  We don't answer to Britain, or to the Netherlands, or to Morocco.  We are an independant nation answerable to ourselves and to God (whatever God you may believe in.)  The athiests may get pissed, but don't they get pissed at everything anyway?
 
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Rear Admiral Riel Fury
Navy Commander In Chief
Krath Prophet(ess), Dark Lord of the Krath, Cult Member in Elite Griffen Sect
Give in to your hatred.  Give in to your anger.  Give in to the Dark Side.

Two things:  How do the words "under God" make us support only one religion.  Pretty much all major religions fit under that.  And secondly, what people fighting for religious freedom?  We are so PC nowadays that the only religion you can bash without a multi-million dollar lawsuit is Christianity.  All other religions are covered.
 
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NTO/LCM JMac/ISD Overlord/Raptor 9/(=A=)(=SA=)(MC1)

"Court is in session, a verdict is in.  No appeal on the docket today, just my own sin.  The walls cold and pale, the cage made of steel.  Screams fill the room, alone I drop and kneel. Silnce now the sound, my breath the only motion around.  Demons cluttering around, my face showing no emotion.  Shackled by my sins and expecting no return.  here there is no pennance, my skin begins to burn."
~Creed

I would call that a bit premature given that you still have buddies at the Republican Party Actually, what IS the defining line that would warrant organizational protection?  Does a white Baptist church need to be bombed?  Does a black cop need to beat some white kid's head against a squad car in full view of a vidcam?  Does a gang need to go out of territory and take down people at random in the 'burbs? Basically, is it a reverse discrimatory question or one of public safety? And who gets to decide? Thoughts?
 
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XO/LTC Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
Company Commander
Shopkeeper - Imperial Center

Fury, all those things happen all the time.  They just aren't reported by anyone other then FoxNews because everyone is afraid of appearing rascist.  Aargon, I didn't say it supported only one. 
 
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NTO/LCM JMac/ISD Overlord/Raptor 9/(=A=)(=SA=)(MC1)

"Court is in session, a verdict is in.  No appeal on the docket today, just my own sin.  The walls cold and pale, the cage made of steel.  Screams fill the room, alone I drop and kneel. Silnce now the sound, my breath the only motion around.  Demons cluttering around, my face showing no emotion.  Shackled by my sins and expecting no return.  Here there is no pennance, my skin begins to burn."
~Creed

FoxNews rules!!!  All news networks are biased, it is just that Fox is biased in my direction, whereas the rest are liberal.  As for the other debate, I'm all for it.  i'm afraid I can't shine much light on the atheist or agnostic point of view, though, as my beliefs do not lie in that area.
 
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NTO/LCM JMac/ISD Overlord/Raptor 9/(=A=)(=SA=)(MC1)

"Court is in session, a verdict is in.  No appeal on the docket today, just my own sin.  The walls cold and pale, the cage made of steel.  Screams fill the room, alone I drop and kneel. Silnce now the sound, my breath the only motion around.  Demons cluttering around, my face showing no emotion.  Shackled by my sins and expecting no return.  Here there is no pennance, my skin begins to burn."
~Creed