Here is something I found quite interesting to read and forward... Fantastic Use Of Logic: - WHY SCIENCE FAILS TO EXPLAIN GOD? At an educational institution: Professing to be wise, they became fools... LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with God. The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. You're a Muslim, aren't you, son? Yes, sir. So you believe in God? Absolutely. Is God good? Sure! God's good. Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything? Yes. The professor grins knowingly and considers for a moment. Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try? Yes sir, I would. So you're good...! I wouldn't say that. Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't. [No answer] He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Muslim who died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. How is this God good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one? [No answer] The elderly man is sympathetic. No, you can't, can you? He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. Let's start again, young fella. Is God good? Er... Yes. Is Satan good? No. Where does Satan come from? The student falters. From... God... That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking,student audience. I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen.He turns back to the Muslim. Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world? Yes, sir. Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything? Yes. Who created evil? No answer] Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All the terrible things - do they exist in his world? The student squirms on his feet. Yes. Who created them? [No answer] The professor suddenly shouts at his student. WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE! The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Muslim's face. In a still small voice: God created all evil, didn't He, son? No answer] The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. >>>Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like >>>an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. Tell me,he continues, How is >>>it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time? The >>>professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man? [No answer] Don't you see it all over the place? Huh? Pause. Don't you? The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, Is God good? No answer] Do you believe in God, son? The student's voice betrays him and cracks. Yes, professor. I do. The old man shakes his head sadly. Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. You have never seen God, Have you? No, sir. I've never seen Him. Then tell us if you've ever heard your God? No, sir. I have not. Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God or smelt your God...in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever? No answer] Answer me, please. No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't. You're AFRAID... you haven't? No, sir. Yet you still believe in him? yes... That takes FAITH! The professor smiles sagely at the underling. According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now? The student doesn't answer] Sit down, please. The Muslim sits...Defeated. Another Muslim raises his hand. Professor, may I address the class? The professor turns and smiles. Ah, another Muslim in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering. The Muslim looks around the room. Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat? Yes, the professor replies. There's heat. Is there such a thing as cold? Yes, son, there's cold too. No, sir, there isn't. The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Muslim continues. You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it. Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom. Is there such a thing as darkness, professor? That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...? So you say there is such a thing as darkness? Yes... You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality,Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you... give me a jar of darker darkness, professor? Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man? Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error.... The professor goes toxic. Flawed...? How dare you...! Sir, may I explain what I mean? The class is all ears. Explain... oh, explain... The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue. You are working on the premise of duality, the Muslim explains. That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it. The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality? Of course there is, now look... Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil? The Muslim pauses. Isn't evil the absence of good? The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless. The Muslim continues. If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? Islam tells us it is to see if each one of us will, choose good over evil. The professor bridles. As a philosophical scientist, I don't vie this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable. I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going, the Muslim replies. Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey? If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do. Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir? The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare. Professor. Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest? I will overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished? the professor hisses. So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous? I believe in what is - that's science! Ahh! SCIENCE! the student's face splits into a grin. Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed...SCIENCE IS FLAWED..? the professor splutters. The class is in uproar. The Muslim remains standing until the commotion has subsided. To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean? The professor wisely keeps silent. The Muslim looks around the room. Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen air, Oxygen,molecules, atoms, the professor's brain? The class breaks out in laughter. The Muslim points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. The Muslim shakes his head sadly. It appears no one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical,stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no brain. Pretty interesting huh...your thoughts about it please...then i'll state mine....
 
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ADJ:NTO EFM/PO1 Liquid/Aegis 3-2 (Aegis Ten)/Wing1/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)(=SA=)

TRN/IN Liquid/Sith/TBA/TBA/VEDJ

I am the TO's Adjutant, and the FS's instructor's assistant. Any questions? please direct them to: Me

Mountain Dew and doughnuts...because breakfast is the most important meal of the day.

/me smiles at least i have touched one corrupted soul.../me hands him a beer
 
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ADJ:NTO EFM/PO1 Liquid/Aegis 3-2 (Aegis Ten)/Wing1/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)(=SA=)

TRN/IN Liquid/Sith/TBA/TBA/VEDJ

I am the TO's Adjutant, and the FS's instructor's assistant. Any questions? please direct them to: Me

Mountain Dew and doughnuts...because breakfast is the most important meal of the day.

hmmm I still believe my God is Science.

I like this, maybe I should go and think about this more, my parents have pounded me into being Catholic, but have never given me a reason as good as this to really try and want religion, thanks Liquid.
 
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CRW Swomz/Flight School/Platform Saratoga/Fleet/VEN/VE
a new n00b or a new b00b

being a catholic in a very dense mormon state has given me the chance to look at very many religions.  In my findings I have learned that I find it hard to believe any of them... I am more on the scientist part...I need proof...and no...you can't prove god, thats not what I'm need proof on but I need proof on the religion itself.  Catholics, for example, as with all christians, believe in the bible...however they can't prove not one thing within it...  probably because of our history of burning documents, but let me address the newly founded mormon church...Not to be rude or anything but they were founded several hundred years or so and can't prove not one thing in their book of mormon.  This goes for any holy book for any religion.  It is my belief that one must serve something greater them yourself.  I am a catholic by birth,  I for one find it very hard to believe in god.  I do believe in a greater power.  Something you can believe in, pray to, go to for help when needed.  It is up to you to decided what that power is.  For most, it is a god, for some its many gods to each power they feel, etc.  I for one believe more in a Buddist state.  I believe in nature, meditation to feel this higher power.  I don't think its a person or has anything to do with a science... but it is something that drives me forward and its something that will better my life...That is what religion is all about...   ----------------------- -=:General Anakin:=- Executive Officer for the Vast Empire XO/GN Anakin/HC-2/Lotaith/VE [SCP][CDS][IOC][CM-SS][LoCx23] YAPI!!!!! E-mail 

MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!  The Athiest(me) strikes again    First of all, that professor is an idiot, he's acting more like a fundamental christian(don't argue with me on that one, I live near too many of them for you to beat me on that  ) than a real athiest.  A real athiest doesn't feel any need to force others to believe, but we'll defend our beliefs when some...(resisting the temptation to swear here, my history with this is pretty bad)...  person tries to convert us.  Second off, the Muslim guy never proved anything except that the professor is an idiot.  He never once(if you really read it) proved that he was right, he just proved the other side wrong.  Personally, I go with Anakin on this, God has never been and cannot be(at this point) proven.  Should you prove it, I will worship him, but until then, why?  This is not to say that I won't humor them, I've been to a Lutheran wedding, several Jewish services, a Bar Mitzvah, and a Catholic Mass.  I have to say, none of them gave me any real feeling of completion, but they were pretty interesting.  I've also got to say one thing more about Anakin's little essay there:  BUDDHISM RULES!!!  They are the only religion in the world(with the exception of Daoism, but that's basically physics  ) that's constantly being proven correct by science    Finally, I'll leave you with a thought that comes from a sign I saw on the door of a classroom at Fresno State University: "Don't pray in my class and I won't think in your church" Can you imagine how much damage that would do if you did that? 
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

Can you imagine how much damage that would do if you did that? <--come, think in my church, see what it does for you.
 
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ADJ:NTO EFM/PO1 Liquid/Aegis 3-2 (Aegis Ten)/Wing1/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)(=SA=)

TRN/IN Liquid/Sith/TBA/TBA/VEDJ

I am the TO's Adjutant, and the FS's instructor's assistant. Any questions? please direct them to: Me

Mountain Dew and doughnuts...because breakfast is the most important meal of the day.

There is nothing at all wrong with thinking in church.  I do it all the time.  I also pray in class.  Argon, if you require proof before you can believe something, then you must not believe in anything.  Nothing that we know can be completely proven.  Evolution, the big bang, all are scientific concepts that are completely unproven.  The Greeks felt that they had proven that all of existence was made up of four elements.  They were wrong, but in their system they proved it.  Scientists studied a bumblebee for the longest time, and they proved conclusively using scienc that a bumble can not fly.  And yet it FLIES!!!  The idea that you have to be able to use your senses in order to prove something to be true is ludicrous.  Can you catch the wind?  Can you see a breeze?  No, you know that there is wind by seeing the effects of the wind.  As for religion, personally I am against all religion.  I have studied most major religions, and have come to accept Jesus Chrisat as my God and savior.  That does not mean that I agree with how his church has fractured.  I was raised in a Catholic family, have gone through the teaching, the life, and the firm but loving pressure from my family, but I am not a Catholic.  I have studied the doctrine, and I am against large parts of it.  In seventh grade I left CCD (Catholic education for public schooled kids) for awhile due to a conflict with the teacher.  That conflict waws that I was refuting her statements and asking her questions about the Catholic doctrine that she couldn't answer.  I am against religion because it is made by men, not God, and men are flawed beings. That does not mean that Christianity is flawed, but I do believe that its various forms are for tha\e most part.
 
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EFM/PO1 JMac/Aegis 3-4/Aegis 12/(=A=)(=SA=)(MC1)

Not only am I perfect, I'm Irish too.
You can't just throw a tiger in a cage, and expect him to be thankfull for the shelter that you gave.
Aegis 4ever!!!

(Aimed at Argon Viper, it is becoming my mission in life to make him an agnostic that watches anime) "Argon Argon Argon... poor little lost lamb Argon." said the scientist. Denying absolutely the existance of a supreme being is infact a violation of the science you love so much, and I'll prove it too. There is a theory of quatum mechanics (not even a fringe theory) that suggests that the nature of reality itself is shaped by our very perceptions, that for reality to calcify into something solid and tangible requires an observer. Apparently Stephen Hawking and some others were worried that this implied that there had to be an observer at the big bang or it couldn't have happened, but that isn't the point. If we accept the possibility that this is the case (and there is some pretty wild evidence that it is, but hardly conclusive) then it raises some very interesting ideas. If man can without realizing it shape the course of reality itself (one physicist suggested that the moon would vanish if enough people stopped looking at it for long enough), what if he realizes his power? What if man is able to manipulate the nature of existance itself at will? Would he not therefore be god? What if there already is some entity in the universe capable of doing just that? Is it not possible that the whole of creation was the product of one individual who realized he could control reality? To finally come to a point, there is so much that isn't understood by science about this universe we have found ourselves in. To deny any idea, be it an All Knowing All Powerful God or a quirk of quantum mechanics, is the height of arrogance for any scientist. Until you have discovered and proven EACH AND EVERY SECRET OF CREATION you have no business rejecting God out of hand on the grounds of "science", otherwise you are just another scientific dogmatist who likes to think he's beeing logical but really just can't wrap his mind around the infinite. My suggestion is go Agnostic, its better for the head.
 
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"Catching fishies, catching fishies,"
"on a hook, on a hook,"
"Pull em out the water, fry them up in batter,"
"Yum yum good, yum yum good."

Actually, i didn't even want to start a religion topic of some sort at all....i actually wanted to prove how good human logic was, and how fast we can think on our feet.....some people misconstrued the topic though, and i aided in it. well, i guess this will aid the effort to stop this. ok...now...no more talk of the religion topic, everyone seems to have their own opinion.
 
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ADJ:NTO EFM/PO1 Liquid/Aegis 3-2 (Aegis Ten)/Wing1/mSSD Atrus/DEF/VEN/VE/(=A=)(=SA=)

TRN/IN Liquid/Sith/TBA/TBA/VEDJ

I am the TO's Adjutant, and the FS's instructor's assistant. Any questions? please direct them to: Me

Mountain Dew and doughnuts...because breakfast is the most important meal of the day.

Darn, JMac and I will have to move elsewhere then won't we?    Oh...  Good...  Lord...  Of...  The...  Crack...  I actually agree with what 3 said... Actually, he's right.  I have always considered religion to be a crutch that people use, and I have never tried to break it.  I have only tried to pursuade them to give it up and walk for themselves.  That might be construed as the same thing, but I've always tried to get people to make the gradual transition instead of cold turkey.  Ever tried walking immediately after using crutches for a while?  It't not fun.  Gradual is much better  As for Geist, I do believe in that theory, and it is a very good one.  However, I don't feel like kissing up to some "all-powerful" thingy-ma-bobber when I could be a Buddhist and start figuring out how to do the same thing myself  And finally, I refuse to watch anime  Anyways, that's my response to what's been said to me    If anyone wants to discuss it further, create a topic for it 
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

religion???? /me decides to stay outta this one....
 
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Viper Squadron Executive Officer/VEDJ UNI/WO2 MegaDeth/Viper1-2/Wing I/mSSD Atrus/VE/VEN (=A=) (=SA=) (=JCPA=) (=SCPA=) [CoB]  
   
Home Editor, "VE Today"
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