did you write that or quote it off the site at the bottom?
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blah909/Crewman in Viper Squadron
"Tu eres tostada." -Me (Means: you are toast)
"We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, We shall fight in the hills; We shall never surrender." -Churchill
"That gotz coolnessnes" -Me (again)
"The battle is won by whoever gets there the firstest and with the mostest." -Someone

I don't know if you can call Bush the "best friend" of the Palestinians.  He still relies on the radical right as his core constituency, and they will absolutely rip him apart if he gives parts of Israel to Palestine.

Personally, I think his "pointy-headed" (to quote Fury) approach to nearly every problem is going to get him in trouble.  I agree that these things seem to be working for now, but there's a limit to how far you can push people, and when he reaches that limit...

I rather preferred the world before he sort of polarized it, creating an enemy where there was none before.  Before now, Iraq was a slight sore.  Sure it was ruled by Saddam, but they were better off then than most African nations I could name.  Now, they're in the grips of anarchy throughout most of the country, and basic services were destroyed during the invasion.  Of course, the oil wells were quickly secured, but we seem to be at a loss as to how the water got blown up so quickly 

He's basically radicalized the middle east to a point we haven't seen since the early Raegan administration, and I don't see that as a good thing.

There's a lot going against him, however, Israel (if he's willing to ignore the radical right), is one thing he might succeed with.  He's got Sharon by the neck, and as long as he keeps Sharon making concessions (even if small ones), he could push this through.

I really hope it works, but I'm not exactly sure it will.
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
Fallen Angel and Proud of It!
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

Oh, that's just bad 
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
Fallen Angel and Proud of It!
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

I love Bush, he seems like the kinda guy willing to get in a good old fashion fist-fight with an opposing political leader.
 
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TRP/LCP LostSoldier/2SQD/1PLT/1COM/1BAT/1REG/VEA/VE

Go to www.google.com

Type in "weapons of mass destruction"

Click "I'm feeling lucky"


Argon, you'll smile
 
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FM/CAP Bear/Kaph 1-2/Phoenix Wing/m-SSD Atrus/VE/VEN/(=A=)(=SA=)(=MA=)(=JCPA=)(=SCPA=) [NDM] [LSM] [BRC]

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit.

Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

Um, North Korea and anyone with a real live nuclear arsenal.

And, um, lest we forget, I remember ol' boy apologizing to China with a quickness a couple years ago.  I don't exactly call that running in guns a-blazin'.

As far as Clinton is concerned, look past the part where you do not like him as a human being (remember, we elected a president, not a loyal husband) and realize that most of the world did not want to kill Americans a few years ago.  Yeah, they might not have liked us, but no huge majorities were signing up for Death to America rallies.

Personally, my idea of a president is someone who keeps the best interest of his nation in mind.  I WANT a principled school principal, clergyman, mailman, even grocery store clerk.  The president, however, should be willing to keep his own perceptions out of the way and just do a damn good job of keeping his own people safe and alive.  If that works with his personal moral code, then bonus.  NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Saddam Hussein was a guaranteed, grade A, "very bad man."  Were there more important countries to deal with before him?  Hell yes, and I doubt you could ever find evidence to convince most of us otherwise.
 
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PRF/LG Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [SCP][PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
Prefect - Stormtrooper Corps
Administrator - Imperial Center

Eh, it's all opinions, yall make sense - But i'm a very strong supporter of our goverment. He's not perfect, but he's doin' what he can and i'll support him. I think I like the way he runs his mouth, I don't know. And as for picking his fights, I see that as a good trait, he DOESN"T feel the need to get into it with anyone willing. And as much as we like to think we know more about these things than he, my guess is he's in a better position to make the calls.
 
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TRP/LCP LostSoldier/2SQD/1PLT/1COM/1BAT/1REG/VEA/VE

Depends on the foriegner :P
 
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TRP/LCP LostSoldier/2SQD/1PLT/1COM/1BAT/1REG/VEA/VE

I'll agree with the citizenship tests any day.  Anyways, Bear, it seems you get the same news I do, I saw that story only an hour or two ago 

Anyways, I feel that these people may have a point.  We pride ourselves in having a government that can supposedly be overthrown peacably when needed.  However, we seem to completely ignore the needs of smaller groups.  It's known as "the Tyranny of the Majority".  For example, women now make up about 52% of the nation's population from everything I've seen.  What would we do if they suddenly all voted the rights of citizenship away from all men?  Do you think we'd sit there and take it?  No, we'd rebel, violently if necessary.

And this is what they're doing.  They aren't fighting anything nearly as blatant, and they don't have nearly as many people, but they are fighting because the majority basically pissed on them and called it good.

I'm not saying I agree with them, far from it.  Those who know me from before my leave time know that I'm an ardent pacifist, but I can see why they do it, and calling them idiots and suppressing them only makes the problem worse.

In addition, where did this concept of "serve and protect your country" come from?  I've got to say, it's the stupidest idea I've ever heard.  Your country, no matter which it is, was made to serve and protect you, not the other way 'round.  If you choose to fight for the rights and freedoms of your fellow man, that's a good cause, but fighting for a country is the reason we have wars pretty much all around the world.

Anyways, that's my rant for today.  Enjoy 
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
Fallen Angel and Proud of It!
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

Oh sure, I can see guys sitting in a bad situation.  Though, as for myself, I've heard about the Taliban for years myself.  It's called reading a newspaper from time to time.

As for these guys being innocent kids in a bad place...uh uh.  Remember back in '91 when we steamrolled past all those surrended Iraqi soldiers who literally were grabbed off the street with guns placed in their hands?  Yeah, those were the guys found huddling in a trench with a thousand of their closest friends faaaaaarrrrr away from their rifles.  That John Walker Lindh punk?  He was with the die-hard holdouts who staged a prison revolt.  Completely different situation in my eyes.

And yes Argon, I know that this country allows for violent revolt.  However, if you do not actually succeed in your revolt, you have every right to be lined up against a wall and be shot as a traitor.  To the victor goes the spoils and all that.  Then again, a theocracy of the few over the many does not necessarily coincide with what the Founding Fathers, Lincoln, and anyone else who had a say on the subject meant.

We execute common murderers and various criminals all the time in the US.  They get a fair trial, legal representation, and they still often get found guilty because they violated a social contract.  The average guy in Guantanamo doesn't even have US or UK citizenship, may not have even come to a Western nation.  Even so, they dedicated themselves to a) overthrowing established governments in the Middle East, and b) blowing up people they've never met simply because of where they are from.

If I picked up a rifle and started sniping out blonde haired people over 6'2" walking in an easterly direction, I would expect to be shot dead by the police, or, if taken alive, being completely screwed in a court of law.  Why?  Because I would be a totally anti-social ass with zero respect for human life.

Now why does joining a band of thugs who blow up busses of school kids or planes full of tourists suddenly give me some kind of victim status?  Degenerate is degenerate.  The very fact that people even argue that these few individuals require a fair trial just means that too many idiots out there are reading The New York Post and The Sun.
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PRF/LG Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [SCP][PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
Prefect - Stormtrooper Corps
Administrator - Imperial Center

Let's put it in this situation.  You are a poor Saudi citizen...  no, that's too good...  let's make you a poor Afghani citizen.  You were born in...  oh, let's say 1965.  You had a king, a government, and some security.  Sure, it was mostly tribal, but you got food, you had some utilities, and the neighbors weren't trying to kill you.

Suddenly, the Soviet Union invades.  Your government falls within a few days, the tribal leaders take over, and the entire military goes underground declaring Jihad (which, unlike the Christian alternative, can only be used to retake land already owned, never to conquer new land).  You're screwed.

Suddenly, off in the distance comes this shining giant, the United States, offering money, support, and weaponry, in order to beat off the Soviet oppressors.

In...  I think it was somewhere around 1989, the Soviets pull out, leaving you with no government, shattered utilities, no food, and an economy based almost entirely on opium.  You look to the shining giant for help, but suddenly, you don't seem to matter any more.  You fought viciously against their enemy, all to the tune of their praise, but when the battle is done, you are forgotten, all the wounds you suffered were "for the cause" and don't entitle you to a bit of support.

Fast forward another ten or twelve years and the Taliban is in charge of the country.  You're happier.  They've brought peace, if not prosperity or freedom.  You no longer have to worry about your neighbor shooting you, because the Taliban protects you.

Suddenly, from out of nowhere, the shining giant returns, but this time, his bombs aim for you instead of the infidels.  Your local Taliban warlord shows his true colors, no longer owing allegiance to a higher authority and suddenly, his soldiers are pillaging the land.

Your family is forced to stand by as your small farm is stripped of anything and everything valuable and you are left with nothing.

The soldiers of the shining giant arrive, but they are distant, they care only about bringing death, nothing about you or your plight.  From overhead, bombs rain down from airplanes too high for you to see.

You hear word of a government far off to the east in Kabul, but nothing reaches you.  You have lost almost everything you hold dear in the first fight for the shining giant, and in month, everything else has been taken from you.

Can you tell me that an uneducated peasant put in this situation would welcome American troops with open arms?  If so, you have an extreme trust of other people and I hope you don't believe the stranger who says he's "borrowing" your wallet 

Anyways, this is far off the original topic of westerners fighting for these groups, but I'm showing you how these groups are born, and the solution is to stop the reason for the groups existing, not to simply punish every member of the group.

We have done absolutely nothing to gain the trust of these people, and anyone who empathizes with them to a significant degree and is inclined toward violence (I only lack the second) will join them, no matter what we say.

What is needed is less spending on the military and more on foreign aid.  People who have something to lose are less likely to risk it, so give them something to lose for (insert Diety here)'s sake!  Go with what works, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

During the time of the Cold War, we spent more on foreign aid than we ever have in our entire history, and every country where that money was spent on the people became our stalwart ally.  Have people forgotten this?  It's only been ten years for crying out loud.

Anyways, thanks for listening to my rant, I hope you enjoyed it 
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
Fallen Angel and Proud of It!
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

Well, you've hit on the crux of one of the biggest debates in the country right now.  We call ourselves the land of the free, but look at us.  The second any danger raises its head, we pull back as many freedoms as we can. 

"He who would sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither" - Ben Franklin

We need to live what we are defending, not hope that we can get it back once we're done defending it.  I agree with Bear, what would we do if another gov't did this to us?  That's the true judge of right and wrong.
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
Fallen Angel and Proud of It!
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

I strongly disagree with the patriot act.  Taking any freedom away, even with the support of the people imperils the rest.  Take the example of the boiling frog.  Toss it straight into the boiling water and it'll struggle and try to leap out.  But if you put it in water and slowly start to boil it, it just dies as parts of it's body shut down.  I don't have much time now, but check out this web site:

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.php
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
Fallen Angel and Proud of It!
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"In combat, second place is only the last to die."- Anonymous
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung