JMac, like you said, there is a lot of analytical focus going into that crud right now.  Now tell me, if you were looking for Osama bin Laden and his hidey hole, would you bother checking anywhere in Israel?  Come on, Israel has one of the best counter-terrorist defense systems in the world otherwise they would have been dead long since.  It isn't anywhere near the top of that list, and the guy(singular) they have working on it probably graduated from Chico State University(the only one in Northern California, where over 7% of the High School Graduates go on to a four year university  ) with a "B" average.  Israel isn't an enemy, and so we don't spy on them nearly as rigorously as... say... Iraq.  Now, let's all hope that the Chico State guy finds time to wade through the mountains of photographs and find the one or two that would show the massacre taking place    Anyways, I think Furry took care of the SW defense system(besides the fact that, in the event of a real nuclear war, we don't have fast enough computers, and the system would be overloaded by the sheer amount of nukes heading for it). Now, my main problem with the Palestinian/Israeli situation is that it springs from another one of these Arab crap-traps.  Arafat tells them what he wants them to believe, and it seems to match up with what the Israelis do.  They believe him, and march off to their dooms.  If they would just ignore him and try to work out a real peace(instead of saying "peace" while bombing the Israelis), everyone but Arafat and Sharon(he only got elected because of this conflict) would be a lot better off. Enjoy my rant 
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"How boring life would be if everyone felt the same way we do..." - Argon Viper
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

/me points and laughs. The propoganda machine rolls on. Since I live in the US, I can certainly vouch that SDI is a dead-end project.  I don't know what country you think I'm from but do your homework first.  The damn thing consistently fails in tests, even ones authorized by Republicans.  Handing slingshots to every kid in the country would be both more effective and cost-efficient. As for the military, if you want to talk strength in numbers, yeah we have the bodies and technology.  But even we don't do strength in numbers as a nation, never really have.  We concentrate on tactical and technological advantage, not rolling numbers of grunts.  Pound for pound, I'd give the field to the Israelis and Swiss any day of the week.  On a strictly air force sense (and maybe naval too), I'd have to say the Japanese could outperform almost anybody. As for the Israelis fighting off Arab armies, read some history.  Basically a pack of armed militias fought out and drove back six nations worth of armies.  This is why the state of Israel exists in the first place.  Even with some parity achieved, how do you defeat an army in which EVERY adult is trained to fight?  Their armor is incredibly strong, Merkavas are better in that environment than even our M-1As.  Their pilots make every potential adversaries air force look like crop dusters out on joy rides.  Besides, there is no way a) Israel would ever take Mecca (for mostly political reasons as if that were their intention the Dome of the Rock would already be rubble)  or b) go down without lobbing nukes. Militarily, this situation is what we used to call Mutually Assured Destruction.  No one can win this thing on a battlefield.  It's just that neither side has seen that yet.  The rest of the world who has an interest in this will just have to wait until some cooler heads emerge - and that is going to take some time and more killing.
 
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XO/LTC Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
Company Commander
Shopkeeper - Imperial Center

Red 5: Israel does have the best Army in the world now.  Yes, we gave them equipment.  They then took it and improved upon it.  Our army is now a joke.  Our soldiers are poorly trained.  Remember Kosovo?  Those soldiers that were captured?  They were captured because they got lost.  THat is how pathetic our army has become.  Israel, on the other hand, has the best trained army in the world. I agree with most of what Fury said, though I disagree about Star Wars defense.
 
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[army] Fishman
FM/SCRW JMac/Aegis 3-4/Aegis 12/(=A=)(MC1)
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
"In order to find his equal an Irishman is forced to talk to God."
- Braveheart
Aegis 4ever!!!

I never get any support Anyway, it doesn't work yet.  I agree with that.  Our tech is progressing by leaps and bounds, though, so we might get something like it to work eventually.  That is my only point.
 
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[army] Fishman
FM/SCRW JMac/Aegis 3-4/Aegis 12/(=A=)(MC1)
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
"In order to find his equal an Irishman is forced to talk to God."
- Braveheart
Aegis 4ever!!!

As for US troop training being bad, you are right. Our troops suck. The only good division is SpecOps, and even they are falling behind. However, I believe that the military budget will be raised again. This brings up another interesting subject. The current state of our military is the fault of Bill Clinton. He cut the military budget severely. If I didn't know otherwise, I'd say he was inviting China to attack us. Don't get me wrong--China would be an excellent ally in any war--but they would kill us in an instant. With all the recruiting the armed forces have been doing lately, I believe our military is about to see a level of supremacy that has not been since WWII. Bush is concerned with military, though his concerns lie more in defense. The training program is terrible. I intend to be one of the few to change it. If you really want to know, I think the only safe way out of this damn war is expansion into space. Eventually a time will come, a nuke will be fired, and we will all die. The earth could be rebuilt--in a couple centuries. However, I am not planning on joining the armed forces. If the draft is reinstated, then I'm going to Canada. I've got more important things to deal with than gettig killed in a senseless war. If the war doesn't last as long as they thought, I may just enlist. It wouldn't be that hard for me to train, as I've already got the physically and mentally (sometimes) fit thing down. Reflexes are tight...I'm a pimp. I've heard that we're instating a new training measure. West Point just ordered 1,000 copies of Rogue Spear II. The future of training lies in computer gaming, my friends, and we are the masters.
 
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[PO1][Red5]/[Nazgul]-[1]/[Wing 1]/[None]/[1VENF]/VEN [=A=] (medals)

Oooo...that's another one I love.  Give a Democrat the presidency and he destroys the military.  It has been argued by many people in many other threads that we had no need for as huge of an army as we fielded circa 1991 or so.  This is true, and any president of whatever political stripe would have downsized some divisions and closed some bases too (or did you not notice a majority Republican Congress shutting down your local air force base?).  If Clinton dropped the ball on anything, it was in not allowing enough funds for training, and face it, a president is only as good as his advisors.  Bush can be blamed for a lot of things too, but one of those is that he has a staff of at least adequate ability (whether or not I believe they live in the same world the rest of us do is another matter). As for China ever fighting us, consider why Taiwan is still an independant nation.  THE CHINESE HAVE NO SOLID SEA OR AIR-LIFT CAPABILITY.  If so, Made in Taiwan items would be selling on Ebay for thousands of dollars as they would be such novelties.  If we ever got into a ground war with China again, it would be because we put ourselves in their way, not the other way around.  Besides, if the PRC ever got super militaristic, I think we'd have plenty of SE Asian nations standing in line to help us fight them.  As for the concept of the People's Army "killing us in an instant", let me just join the large crowd of people laughing about that one.  It would be bloody to be sure, but while our troops are lax, they aren't common street trash.  We do have more than a few great regular army outfits. Finally, as to the draft dodging comment, it is kind of like the response I have to people who don't vote.  If you don't feel any personal investment as to how this country functions, changes, and survives, you really don't have any room to complain.  Barring an outright economic fight like the Gulf War, I would have no qualms with getting fitted for my fatigues.  This country has, thus far, educated me for next to nothing, protected my property and finances, and allows me relatively good freedom of movement, thought, and behavior.  I think that is worth fighting for in a pinch.
 
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XO/LTC Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
Company Commander
Shopkeeper - Imperial Center

May I ask a question about the US Military? I shall assume that as a yes. The BBC runs the largest news corporation in the world and one of the best (just look at the BBC World Service.. listened to on the radio by over a billion people a year). Therefore, I see a lot of American Generals, Admirals and other such senior officers on the TV. The one thing that strikes me most is.. their medals. They appear to have an average of about 30 medals each, including a lot of pretty multi-coloured badges, shields etc. May I ask.. what exactly are they for? Presumably some of you military buffs will know. They will also know why I also see kids (barely past adolescense) wearing a row of medals and sergeant stripes, and yet haven't been out of their own country. You're probably wondering what my point to all this is, right? Well, here goes.. My grandad was in the Royal Lincolnshire Regiment of Foot in World War 2. He volunteered before 1939 (when the war started), and at the outbreak was a Sergeant. He fought in the first battles of the war in northern France, and was evacuated at Dunkirk, along with 250,000 other British, French and some Belgium troops. He then went to fight in Palestine, and after that fought in Egypt (although not at the famous battle of El Alamein, as he went back there a few days too late.. ). He then joined the yanks pushing the Germans right back across the mediterranean, and then, with the rest of his Regiment, participated in the invasion of Italy. He then spent the rest of the war clearing out what was left of the resistance in Italy, and then handling POW's for interrogation and imprisonment. When war was officially over, he went to Germany for a year as an occupying forces soldier, before being demobbed. Which means he fought in WW2 from the beginning to the end.. not always in the thick of it, but he was there. What is strange is this: he fought in no less than six countries, against three armies (Vichy French, German and Italian), and yet he did not get promoted and only got 4 medals (all were Campaign medals - French, two African and one Italian). The point is this: He fought in the most bloody war mankind has ever seen. He did his duty to his country and his freedom, and never asked for 30 medals and a promotion to Brigadier. On the other hand, young men join the US Marines, and within a few years (maybe 5 or 6), have a row of medals and Sergeant stripes. What did they get them for? They sat at home, doing what their Commanders told them to do. They didn't do anything above-and-beyond the call of duty, but still got a promotion and numerous medals. So, when one of these 23 year old Sergeants goes to war, is he going to be chasing the Medal of Honour being a hero? Is he going to be doing heroics to get promoted to 1st Sergeant? Of course he isn't. Why should he, when he can go home, and within a few years have another row of medals and another couple of stripes? Think about it. The US Army has a high proportion of well-decorated young men, who would probably piss themselves if they heard an MLRS going off next to them. Are these men going to form the worlds greatest fighting force? Not a chance! I certainly wouldn't want to be playing hero to get medals if I could just as easily sit on my butt and get them. Would you? In contrast.. In the Royal Army, there are about a dozen medals, plus campaign medals. A promotion from 2nd Lieutenant to 1st Lieutenant takes, on average, 4 years. A promotion from Private to Lance Corporal takes about the same. It is virtually impossible for an infantry/tank/artilleryman to get a medal without having gone somewhere. And its these guys who are spearheading the assault on whats left of Al Qaeda in south Afghanistan.. ever since the "Elite" 10th Mountain Division (or whatever the number is) decided to call in the British after they walked into a valley and got shot at. You might say the Royal Marines are just Americas scape-goats. You would rather our men died than yours. But thats not the point.. What is the point? Well, I don't hear theres any problem with that valley anymore On a backtrack, I'm not trying to disrespect every US soldier who ever lived. I've seen (in magazines and on TV) soldiers who more than deserve their medals and ranks, and are still passionate about their training and their army. But I've also seen the young men and women who just get a few medals for doing seemingly nothing..
 
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CMDR/CAP Aaron 'Bear' Le'pue/Flight School 1/Training Fleet/Plt Saratoga/VEN/VE (=A=) (=SA=) (=FOCE=) (=JCPA=) [BRC] [BRC] [LSM] [LoC] [NDM]
VE Today Chief Editor
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Bear - [email protected]
Vast Empire Today - [email protected]

I should probably stop talking, but my American nature tells me to defend my point of view. China may not have the amount of warheads we do, but don't worry, they could. They've got enough labor over there (though I don't know about resources) to construct any number of missiles. It's the same with air and sea military. Of course, we would try to stop them, but they could become a major thorn in our side IF THEY WANTED, which they don't, because they don't like nukes, which we happen to have. All those medals are for lots of stuff. In the Royal Military or whatever, medals are probably much more coveted. Here, you are expected to get a medal. My granddad fought in Nam--he was never really in the action, as some of yours were; he managed communications on the inside--and he got some medals. Now, I don't think thats a very hard job, but he still got medals. You get medals for everything. As for promotions, it all goes back to Bill. Our military sucks, because he cut the budget. They need commanders, and anybody who even looks prospective will be given the opportunity. Of course, this is just from various stereotypes, found on various websites/books/news, but it is most likely mostly true. Hmm, that was akward. Oh well.
 
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[PO1][Red5]/[Nazgul]-[1]/[Wing 1]/[None]/[1VENF]/VEN [=A=] (medals)

I'm with Bear.  My grandad served in WWII as well, fighting for the US of A.  He received the bronze star for bravery and the purple heart medal(both in the same instance of resuing someone), and then at out the rest of the war playing a piano for a band that went around to the liberated concentration camps.  Now, if a modern soldier managed to do something like that, the most likely result would be a purple heart(which you can get for being dumb enough to break your leg on the obstacle course these days...), a gold star, a other medals for gallantry, a couple medals for service, another few for activity, and a trip to meet the president.  The only reason they don't send the troops from Afghanistan to meet the president is cause they don't want to admit on nationwide TV that the only reason those troops are alive is(go Bear) cause the British SAS dropped in and saved their @$$es.  If I went to war right now, I would not allow my self to be decorated for something like "exemplary service at the comm for May 3rd".  I'd turn down the bloody medal in respect to those who served in a real war and fought and died for their medals.  Hope you enjoyed this rant 
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"How boring life would be if everyone felt the same way we do..." - Argon Viper
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

Lesse, I estimate that the Arab nations would have to kill approximately 80% of their populations in order to exterminate every single Israeli.  I think there are several people who would do that, but not their leadership, those people actually have some intelligence(how else do you think they manage to keep a monarchy going in a world of growing democracies(republics)?). As to China attacking us...  Maybe this is a plot to make me double over laughing at my computer so I can't reply...  China is not in a position to challenge US superiority.  Europe is, but their not going to do it militarily.  As far as I'm concerned, there is no threat, so we should stop hyping people up by making them think there are. You see, that's the downside of the situation, the smarter people have less children while the dumber ones have more.  The only difference in this day and age is that the dumber kids usually survive to adulthood.  I'm starting to favor a selective breeding program...(you can have three kids, you can have two...  whoooeeee, you don't get any, and take a bloody bath  )...
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"How boring life would be if everyone felt the same way we do..." - Argon Viper
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

hehehe
 
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SL/SGMTRaziel/4SQD/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/ {EW1}
Squad Leader - Squad4 Wraiths

In 1982 (or was it 3?), Britain, with a smaller Armed Forces than the USA, managed to form a task force of 60 ships, 100 aircraft (of which about 30 were fighters) and 5000 fighting troops in just a few weeks. That was the at Falklands, btw.. It was set to come against the entire armed forces of Argentina (about 180,000 strong at the time), and defeated them. There was also a nuclear capability there (several of the 6 British submarines carried nuclear weapons, although they were obviously never used). By the end of it, 200 British men were killed, two (?) British ships sunk and about 20 aircraft downed (not all in combat). They had gone over 15,000 miles, at the very limits of the Navys range, and sustained themselves for several months. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how war is going to be, and has been, fought in the 21st century. The war in Afghanistan was only made possible using a coalition task-force (using the flag ships of both the US and Royal Navy), and the same goes for the Gulf War. If Iraq is invaded, it will be the same story. Look at it like this: JMac, ok, China could bomb the US with nuclear missiles. 50% of them would be shot down by US surface-to-air missiles, 10% would miss their targets, 10% would fail to detonate, and 20% of the targets would be strategic (as opposed to tactical) anyway, such as airfields, missile silos etc (as opposed to cities). Of the 10% that are on target, do get past the defences, and do hit something worthwhile to be hit.. well, are they going to destroy the entire country? Well, no. The Chinese are going to have to invade at some point, so they'll send a.. wait for it.. wait for it.. task force! It will probably be destroyed by whats left of the US Armed Forces, and then NATO will form a.. wait for it.. wait for it.. task force! Then we'll go and invade China. Ok, thats a heap of rubbish, right? Yes, it is. But the point is.. wars these days can only be fought effectively by small, highly mobile forces - which shows why some countries *cough* the UK *cough* are emerging as leaders in the field of international combat, as they can get their main forces to the battlefield quickly. If you still disagree, let me ask you this: In the Cold War, if you said to someone "We could get nuked tommorrow!" they would be very worried. If you said to them "You know, in 2002, the main threat to this country won't be nuclear weapons, but terrorism." they would probably laugh, and then have you locked you up. The world has changed, and maybe Clinton cutting back on the money-eating battleships and tens of thousands of infantry so the countrys forces can be more mobile and effective, is what the US really needs. After all, if the situation changed tommorrow, from terrorism to.. guerilla warfare (i.e. small groups of Chinese/Arab partisans in the Rockies shooting Americans), the US's forces would have a much harder time adapting to this new threat than, say, their "closest ally".
 
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CMDR/CAP Aaron 'Bear' Le'pue/Flight School 1/Training Fleet/Plt Saratoga/VEN/VE (=A=) (=SA=) (=FOCE=) (=JCPA=) [BRC] [BRC] [LSM] [LoC] [NDM]
VE Today Chief Editor
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Bear - [email protected]
Vast Empire Today - [email protected]

Red, so you seriously think China are going to attack? Whats this about an Arab nation coming to get us? So they didn't seem to band together and fight us when we attacked the taliban?? And btw you think India and Pakistan will gang up and nuke us?? if you hadn't noticed they're a bit busy dealing with each other most of the time. If they nuke anyone it would be each other! I hardly think they'd really put aside all their differences to get together for a mass nuking of Western countries! And Iraq are still busy with Iran FFS!!! The arab states are totalitarion and wouldn't touch the chinese with a barge pole!! And btw the leaders of most arab countires are exceeding rich men who keep the rest of the population down. Who keeps them rich? We do actually, so i doubt they'd be too willing to take us out. Oh and this really wouldnt be as bad as it is if our foreign policies were a bit better, to put it simply WE are the cause of poverty. Now i know this is a serious overstaement. When they tried to make Iran a westernised country the religious fanatics took them down. But if we weren't putting them into third world debt and abusing them for their goods this would be a lot better. But hell if China are gonna nuke US, this is my caring Face
 
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SL/SGMTRaziel/4SQD/1COMP/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/ {EW1}
Squad Leader - Squad4 Wraiths

D*mn, Raz got to my arguments before I could... 
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"How boring life would be if everyone felt the same way we do..." - Argon Viper
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung

Yeah, go Fury!!!  I've always loved the Oriental ways of looking at things, they make so much more sense than "I don't know what it is, let's kill it..." 
 
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Argon Viper
IW COL Argon Viper{ret}
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"How boring life would be if everyone felt the same way we do..." - Argon Viper
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung