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Author
Topic:  Good-bye VE
Lord_Ice
ComNet n00b
 
 
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 2, 2002 6:05:39 PM    View the profile of Lord_Ice 
I am leaving the Vast Empire, effective immediately.  Some of you have become friends with me, but I must say I cannot stay in a group whose leadership would play such a sick joke. I had an April Fool's joke too.  I told skacy I didn't care if he went back to the main channel for a little while.  You know, the guy who came in cussing just to have kicks.  He went to far, but it was still pretty funny.  It got everyone worked up..  Next, I'll tell you why I joined.  I only joined this club so I could get some leadership experience so I could start my own club.  Bottom line:  I used the VE to prepare me for that.  I have learned a lot in my time here.  I'd say I made the right choice if that had been my only goal.  But I ended up making friends, something I hadn't expected.  I liked the structure of the group, the way it felt like a real military organization.  I have a confession to make.  Many of you know this, I'm sure.  I was Icer before I joined as Chaos.  I joined in December, near my birthday.  In January I learned I wasn't being active and got awoled.  I decided my best bet was to start over.  As Chaos I learned how to be an "active" member.  I got on mirc and posted on the comnet nearly every day.  I quickly made it to a postion of flight leader, and I must say I was far happier in Venom than I ever was in Nazgul.  I just didn't fit there.  But it's just Apirl Fools! everybody.  Can you guess what the joke is?  There isn't one.  It's all true.  And I really am leaving. I'm sorry to those of you who in no way influenced this one way or another.  I can no longer trust the HC, which is why I felt humiliated and wanted to get back at them anyway.  I trusted that they would never sink so low.  I believe their joke went to far and it played on our trust of them to be effective.  In my opinion they abused their power as HC members. My time in the VE has been great, I'm sorry I must go, but I am committed now.  Oh, and HC members, treat this like a full fledged defection.  It was one of the things to make my new story even better.  You guys owe me that much.  Oh, and please don't edit this message too much.  You wouldn't let me say good-bye on my old callsign, so I did this just to say good-bye. To you pretenders out there, I really am crazy.  The HC angered a crazy person, they pushed, and I pushed back.  I guess I lost that one, but honestly my joke was funnier. To my friends, Japheth, Arturus, Warmaker, and Megadeth, may your battles never cease and your victories never dwindle.  Good-bye Vast Empire Navy.  I will miss you. FL/PO2 Chaos/Venom 2-1/Offensive Fleet/ISD Overlord/VEN/VE [=A=] [=JCPA=]
Yun
ComNet Novice
 
[VE-ARMY] Private First Class
 
Post Number:  56
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 2, 2002 6:20:08 PM    View the profile of Yun 
hey,   Sorry to see ya go
 
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Whatever floats your boat
Riel Fury
ComNet Veteran
 
[VE-DJO] Krath Oracle (KO)
[VE-NAVY] Rear Admiral (RAD)
[VE-VEHC] Rear Admiral*
 
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 2, 2002 6:24:49 PM    View the profile of Riel Fury 
*sighs I still don't understand, but good luck in your future projects.
 
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Rear Admiral (U) Riel Fury
Navy Commander In Chief
Krath Priest
Head Master's assistant in the VEDJ Academy
Cult Member in Elite Griffen Sect
Lord_Ice
ComNet n00b
 
 
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 2, 2002 6:47:21 PM    View the profile of Lord_Ice 
Actually Riel I got pretty pi$$ed when you did your little hazing ritual on me a few months ago, but I kinda expected something like that and I just got over it.  This broke my trust in the HC.  That is why I'm not fighting their decision and I am leaving.
Anakin
ComNet Overlord
 
[VE-ARMY] General
[VE-VEHC] General
 
Post Number:  361
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 2, 2002 7:32:25 PM    View the profile of Anakin 
there are alot better pranks to pull then having someone come in and say different versions of "fuck" for 2 hours strait.... and this same person for the last month has been coming in and doing the same thing....what do you expect...duh... at least we kept to the rules...and if anyone has a problem with the HC come to us first...  None of this I think the HC is bull SH** crap  you have a problem...come to us.  One thing you need to learn in a military organization is you don't disrespect a senior officer....that goes for all...   ----------------------- -=:General Anakin:=- Executive Officer for the Vast Empire XO/GN Anakin/HC-2/Lotaith/VE [SCP][CDS][IOC][CM-SS][LoCx23] E-mail 
[This message has been edited by Anakin (edited April 2, 2002 7:33:59 PM)]
Fury
ComNet Overlord
 
[VE-ARMY] High General
[VE-VEHC] High General*
 
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 2, 2002 7:33:49 PM    View the profile of Fury 
On behalf of myself and just myself, I'd like to add the following: "Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya."
 
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XO/LTC Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
Company Commander
Shopkeeper - Imperial Center
Matok
ComNet Novice
 
Force Elite Soldiers  [ARMY]
Force Elite Soldiers  [HC]
 
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 2, 2002 7:50:21 PM    View the profile of Matok 
Its shameful that people leave because of a simple joke. As you put it earlier Lord_Ice, you wanted to learn leadership experience. Well take it from someone who has had a good amount. Walking away from something this small is a good failure on your quest for leadership. If you want to form your own organization, the last thing to do is quit on your troops. People look up to you, and being a coward does not help. A joke is a joke. I was abit upset at first when i heard it was a joke, but i got over it in seconds, and was calm about it. I got to admit it was pretty good.. fooled me . Ice, its great you had devotion. Working towards a goal of leadership. I remember when I was a trooper in the Emperor Hammer.. how I had to work up through years of training. It was not a pleasant task at times and I had many bumpy starts. A few years later when I joined FES, I had a car accident, but I still posted in the VE story while I was on my laptop at Metro-Hospital, waiting out my injuries. Devotion is a great thing to have, but scrapping it at the last moment for something so small as jokes is not how a devoted person acts. I would suggest you work on your skills abit more and pray you dont do this with your own club. Good luck in the outside world.
 
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General Rafran Matok,
'Rampage' Task Force Commander of the Shadow Army,
[ Force Elite Soldiers ]
Rizzit
ComNet Veteran
 
[VE-ARMY] Captain
[VE-DJO] Initiate (IN)
 
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 2, 2002 8:03:34 PM    View the profile of Rizzit 
I really wish that you would reconsider. It was only a joke. Sure, lot's of people were worried about it, but we all had a good laugh when all was said and done. Tell me, if you were on the other side of that joke, how would you have felt?
 
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Sargeant Rizzit
Dark Jedi Knight
Eagle Sect
Raider's Squad
XO/TRP/SGT Rizzit/3SQD/1PLT/COMP/1BAT/1RGT//VE[OPE][OTH]
CM/DJK Rizzit/Lion 1-3//VE
"Should I let him die slowly, or put him out of his misery?"--Rizzit
Talon
ComNet Overlord
 
[VE-ARMY] High General
[VE-DJO] Dark Jeedai Master (DJM)
[VE-VEHC] High General
 
Post Number:  1490
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 2, 2002 8:43:48 PM    View the profile of Talon 
I was in the channel last night when your "friend" came in and was flooding with curses and you stood up for him. The VE has no place for someone who can't take a joke (seeing as we joke all the time) and think that something like what that moron pulled is funny AND acceptable.
 
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PRF-RC/BG Sierra "Talon" Taurus/HCA-1/VEA/VE[BC][IOC][LoC][SoS][BM][CDS][MSM]
WDN-SL/KO "Nightblades"/DC-4/Elite Griffen Sect/VSD-II Griffen/VEDJ/VE[IOC][OQD][WoS 2nd Class]
CEO Sierra "Talon" Taurus/ECHC-1/Endoven/Dome 8473/VEEC/VE
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CAPT/RA (L) Vincent "Claw" Taurus/ISD Nemesis/Offensive Fleet/VEN[=A=][LoM][IOC][IC2]
CE Vincent "Claw" Taurus/Endoven/Dome 8457/VEEC/VE
Spartacus
ComNet Member
 
[VE-ARMY] Surface Marshal
[VE-DJO] Dark Jedi Master (DJM)
[VE-VEHC] Surface Marshal
 
Post Number:  326
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 2, 2002 9:44:19 PM    View the profile of Spartacus 
This thread should be locked or deleted.
 
-----------------------
"Out of the night that covers me, Black as the Pit from pole to pole,  
I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud.  
Under the bludgeonings of chance, My head is bloody, but unbowed.
It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul."
--- William Ernest Henley (1849 – 1903)
Warmaker
ComNet Veteran
 
[VE-DJO] Dark Jedi Knight (DJK)
[VE-NAVY] Captain (CAP)
 
Post Number:  1023
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 3, 2002 12:08:19 AM    View the profile of Warmaker 
Bad to see you go Chaos, we had some good fights in XWA, take care on your way. cya
 
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CMDR/AD/ESN Warmaker/Viper 1-1/WING I/mSSD Atrus/VE/VEN (=A=) (=SA=) (=JCPA=) (=SCPA=) [VC-B]

You can run but you cannot hide
Have you ever kissed a Snake?
Argon Viper
ComNet Expert
 
[VE-ARMY] Sergeant Major
[VE-VEEC] Senior Writer
 
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 3, 2002 12:21:44 AM    View the profile of Argon Viper 
Oh well, I guess I'm too much of a Fallen Angel to notice too much what you VE peeps do.  I'll admit that you sorta fooled us(although Ani not replying to my e-mail all day sorta screwed the joke up...).  Anyways, I'll admit that me and few other FAs were plotting to independent if you guys collapsed(we use StarCraft, so LA can't touch us  ).  But we decided to wait till 2/4, and, lo and behold, it was a joke.  It was pretty funny to watch the reactions when that came out    The bottom line is that you guys are way to serious, Geist's played some worse pranks in his time, learn to lighten up 
 
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Argon Viper
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"How boring life would be if everyone felt the same way we do..." - Argon Viper
"Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses" - Carl G Jung
"The way of peace is always better than the way of war, it's just not as fast" - Argon Viper
Bear
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Captain (CAP)
[VE-VEEC] Chief Editor
 
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 3, 2002 6:57:38 AM    View the profile of Bear 
I'll post the same here as I have on the Navy Main.. Some of us are obviously missing the point.. The joke was pretty good. It wasn't laugh-out-loud funny, but ironic. It wasn't offensive either. It was just a bit of fun. However, I think what has obviously annoyed people most is the aftermath of it. As soon as everyone saw the letter, practically all the CoC's were broken. There were high ranking officers swearing their heads off, people making themselves Grand Admirals all of a sudden, and even I was tempted to fart in the face of every senior officer I could find. I also learnt that someone (won't name them) deleted all their VE-related files because they believed the VE was shutting down. Some people would say all this is stupid, but when you see your mature, respectable officers swearing their heads off and every junior fool pronouncing himself Lord of the Vast Empire & all the Birds and the Bee's, it does make you look at things a little differantly. Is breaking every CoC in the book, losing months of work and seeing every idiot with fingers and half a brain becoming a Grand Admiral actually fun? Looking back, its pretty hilarious. But there is an element of seriousness here - some people have come here to work hard, play hard, and now perhaps they're thinking it might just be work soft, play harder. Not that I'm sticking up for anyone. I'm completely unbiased
 
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CMDR/CAP Aaron 'Bear' Le'pue/Flight School 1/Training Fleet/Plt Saratoga/VEN/VE (=A=) (=SA=) (=FOCE=) (=JCPA=) [NDM] [LSM] [BRC] [BRC]
TRP/CPL Grizzly/3SQD/1PLT/1COMP/1BAT/1REG/Lorn IV/VEA 
-----------------------
Bear - [email protected]
Vast Empire Today - [email protected]
Matok
ComNet Novice
 
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 3, 2002 7:21:07 AM    View the profile of Matok 
I agree with Surface Marshal Spartacus. This topic may be getting out of place and is advertising his position.
 
-----------------------
General Rafran Matok,
'Rampage' Task Force Commander of the Shadow Army,
[ Force Elite Soldiers ]
Bear
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Captain (CAP)
[VE-VEEC] Chief Editor
 
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 3, 2002 7:30:34 AM    View the profile of Bear 
Oh, cheers
 
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CMDR/CAP Aaron 'Bear' Le'pue/Flight School 1/Training Fleet/Plt Saratoga/VEN/VE (=A=) (=SA=) (=FOCE=) (=JCPA=) [NDM] [LSM] [BRC] [BRC]
TRP/CPL Grizzly/3SQD/1PLT/1COMP/1BAT/1REG/Lorn IV/VEA 
-----------------------
Bear - [email protected]
Vast Empire Today - [email protected]
Gui Sun Paan
ComNet Initiate
 
[VE-DJO] Dark Jedi Master (DJM)
[VE-NAVY] Vice Admiral (VAD)
[VE-VEHC] Vice Admiral*
 
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 3, 2002 8:40:38 AM    View the profile of Gui Sun Paan 
Look. I grow tired of saying this, so it will be the last time. IT WAS A VERY GOOD APRIL FOOLS JOKE. IT WAS NOT MEANT TO HURT ANYONE. IT DOES NOT IMPLY THAT THE HC HAS NO MORALS. IT IMPLIES THAT THEY HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOR AND THAT APPARENTLY YOU DO NOT. GET OVER IT. MOVE ON! BE ACTIVE OR LEAVE BECAUSE YOU THINK WE ARE ALL A BUNCH OF DUMMIES. WE DON'T CARE. YOU WERE THE ONE WHO LASHED OUT AT US BY COMING INTO THE MAIN CHANNEL FLOODING IT WITH CUSS WORDS. There, I even put it in all caps and bold so that you get the full effect. Sorry for those that don't like it when I do that, but I feel I just had no choice.....
 
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Lord Darth Gui Sun "Sandrock" Paan de Vortigern
Dark Jedi Master
Deputy Grand Master of the Vast Empire Dark Jedi
DGM/DJM Gui Sun Paan/DC-2/VEDJ/VCF Deathscythe[EoP]
Vice Admiral Gui Sun "Sandrock" Paan de Vortigern
Naval Executive Officer and Deathscythe Ship Captain
NXO-SC/VA Gui Sun Paan/NHC-2/VCF Deathscythe/VEN/VE
Gui Sun Paan
ComNet Initiate
 
[VE-DJO] Dark Jedi Master (DJM)
[VE-NAVY] Vice Admiral (VAD)
[VE-VEHC] Vice Admiral*
 
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 3, 2002 8:42:39 AM    View the profile of Gui Sun Paan 
Oh yeah... someone remind me to get around to changing my signature.... I still have myself as NXO :P Paan
Fury
ComNet Overlord
 
[VE-ARMY] High General
[VE-VEHC] High General*
 
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 3, 2002 11:39:45 AM    View the profile of Fury 
Bravo Paan. Basically, a thought or two. If the thread is deleted, then someone will cry that the VE doesn't allow room for dissent. If we keep it, then it allows people to kick a dead mule until the stench is unbearable. How about this:  The time was chaotic, the floor show was incredible.  Nobody needs to justify whether or not they believed it.  Nobody should try to justify their actions, words, or behavior other than those actively recruiting to take sections of the VE away.  Nor should they start pointing fingers. In my eyes, this thread is pretty much dead.  Joke's over, get back to work or something.  If you feel a need to talk to any of our dear departed, get a hold of them by PM or something. If you have energy to spend on this, we definitely have a lot of things to do that are constructive to the VE.
 
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XO/LTC Fury/VEA/TADATH/VE [PoC][SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
Company Commander
Shopkeeper - Imperial Center
PaTrIcK
ComNet Novice
 
 
Post Number:  84
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 3, 2002 5:02:43 PM    View the profile of PaTrIcK 
      I never knew this Character, but I agree with Paan... He is getting known too much in this thread.
 
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TRP/LCPL Patrick/2SQD/2PLT/1COM/1BAT/1RGT/VEA/VE
Member of the Dreaded Knight Squad.
Spartacus
ComNet Member
 
[VE-ARMY] Surface Marshal
[VE-DJO] Dark Jedi Master (DJM)
[VE-VEHC] Surface Marshal
 
Post Number:  326
Total Posts:  326
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 3, 2002 6:47:04 PM    View the profile of Spartacus 
POST # 19! Wooohoo!
 
-----------------------
"Out of the night that covers me, Black as the Pit from pole to pole,  
I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud.  
Under the bludgeonings of chance, My head is bloody, but unbowed.
It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul."
--- William Ernest Henley (1849 – 1903)
Rizzit
ComNet Veteran
 
[VE-ARMY] Captain
[VE-DJO] Initiate (IN)
 
Post Number:  1470
Total Posts:  2943
Joined:  Mar 2002
Status:  Offline
  RE: Good-bye VE
April 3, 2002 8:55:06 PM    View the profile of Rizzit 
Look, I may not be on the HC, but I do understand where they are coming from. Now, if I may, I would like to offer you all a few thoughts. 1. We are all part of a gaming club-This means we are supposed to have fun. It is not unreasonable to have a little bit of fun with an April Fool's joke. Some of you have no sense of humor, whatsoever. 2. A point was made by Riel I believe: The people that were bothered the most, were the people that do absolutely nothing for the squad and/or are usually inactive.-This is true: The day of the joke, the channel was full of people outraged about the whole thing and trying to "save" the VE. The day after the channel was empty, and things were back to normal...except people who can't take the joke have quit. 3.In defense of the above arguement, people have said that their showing up that day, shows how much they care.-This I don't believe to be true. IF they did care about the VE, they would have made that day the start of new period of being active for them. Instead, they went back to not showing up on the channel. 4. The HC is not here to tick people off.-Many of you disagree with me on this point. It is true though. Some of you go around quitting the VE and keep dragging this post on and on. IT WAS A JOKE! GET OVER IT!I also feel, that if the HC would like to close this topic, they have every right to do so. This topic is getting old, and the arguements are becoming pointless. I am not a HC member, as I said earlier, but I know that they have a tough time doing their jobs as it is. They are the backbone of the VE, and they do not need people whining like babies about "oh you guys are mean" or "You have no morals". Now I ask you:Could any of you handle their job better than they could? Or even the same? I seriously doubt that. I respect the HC for the way they are able to keep their cool with all the incessive whiningthat you all do. It certainly doesn't make their job any easier. Plus, they have to deal with their regular duties on top of that. So, next time you criticize the HC, think about how it would be if you were in their computer seat, and had to deal with someone like you whining to them all they time. 5. Thank you for hearing me out. I know that I fell for the joke, and did try to save the VE for a while before I caught on. BUT....I am one of the people that are active every day, and do things to help out the VE. I may complain sometimes....but I don't whine like some of you have. I also have a good reason to when I do complain. I also would like to apologize in advance if I have offended anyone with my post, but keep in mind that this doesn't apply to all of you. I am sure that you very well know who you are. I was only addressing particular members of the VE whose names I will not mention at this time. Thanks again, and may the dark side be with you!
 
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Sargeant Rizzit
Dark Jedi Knight
Eagle Sect
Raider's Squad
XO/TRP/SGT Rizzit/3SQD/1PLT/COMP/1BAT/1RGT//VE[OPE][OTH]
CM/DJK Rizzit/Lion 1-3//VE
"Should I let him die slowly, or put him out of his misery?"--Rizzit
Darkhawk
ComNet Disciple
 
[VE-DJO] Sith Warrior (SW)
[VE-NAVY] Commodore (COM)
 
Post Number:  2090
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 3, 2002 9:20:11 PM    View the profile of Darkhawk 
I totally agree with Fury that this thread (and all related threads) are really dead by now, but I just wanted to add one little thing before it is closed. I really want to say that I truly cannot figure out why ANYONE would go and quit the Vast Empire because of an April Fool's joke. That has to be one of the most idiotic, childish, things I've heard in a long time - and it just doesn't make sense. How many times has it been said "a joke is a joke"? Well, I'll repeat it once more for good measure. Lonewolf, Chaos, anyone who has left - please consider. I really have no idea what good it is doing you to leave. And a huge cookie will be baked and sent to ztribal for his comeback. Honestly, I might not have room to talk because I wasn't here. But looking back it seems pretty funny. But here's the kicker - as mentioned elsewhere on the comnet, that letter was not exactly the most well-written, official-looking document. And parts of it made no sense. On top of all that, if you didn't realize it was April Fool's Day and make the connection, well . . . That's all.
 
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NTO/SC/FL/CM Darkhawk/Raptor 3-1 (Raptor Nine)/ISD II Devastator/OFF/VEN/VE/(=A=)(=SA=)(=JCPA=)(=SCPA=)(=FOCE=)[BRC][VC:Ebony]

Japheth
ComNet Veteran
 
[VE-DJO] Krath Templar (KT)
[VE-NAVY] Rear Admiral (RAD)
[VE-VEHC] Rear Admiral*
 
Post Number:  1197
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 3, 2002 10:11:11 PM    View the profile of Japheth 
For the record, I don't think LW has quit, or if he has, I don't know about it.
 
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Captain Japheth Cappadocious, Dark Jedi Knight
Naval Executive Officer
NXO/FC/SC/FL/CAP Japheth Cappadocious/Raptor 2-1/ISD Overlord/OFF/VEN/VE/(=SA=)(=SCPA=)(=FOCE=)[MC:1]
ECM/DJK Japheth Cappadocious/Krath Order/Elite Griffen Sect/VEDJ/VE
Bear
ComNet Member
 
[VE-NAVY] Captain (CAP)
[VE-VEEC] Chief Editor
 
Post Number:  949
Total Posts:  947
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Status:  Offline
  RE: Good-bye VE
April 4, 2002 3:42:27 AM    View the profile of Bear 
I said it then, I'll say it now.. There was no signature on the bleeding letter! Now this topic really is dead
 
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CMDR/CAP Aaron 'Bear' Le'pue/Flight School 1/Training Fleet/Plt Saratoga/VEN/VE (=A=) (=SA=) (=FOCE=) (=JCPA=) [NDM] [LSM] [BRC] [BRC]
TRP/CPL Grizzly/3SQD/1PLT/1COMP/1BAT/1REG/Lorn IV/VEA 
-----------------------
Bear - [email protected]
Vast Empire Today - [email protected]
Darkhawk
ComNet Disciple
 
[VE-DJO] Sith Warrior (SW)
[VE-NAVY] Commodore (COM)
 
Post Number:  2090
Total Posts:  2685
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 4, 2002 9:28:45 PM    View the profile of Darkhawk 
Well, he did send out a resignation letter. And the word on the street is that he's not coming back. Riel gave me the go ahead to remove him from the roster. I'll double-check with him through e-mail (you can, too, Japheth), but I fear he's left us again.
 
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NTO/SC/FL/CM Darkhawk/Raptor 3-1 (Raptor Nine)/ISD II Devastator/OFF/VEN/VE/(=A=)(=SA=)(=JCPA=)(=SCPA=)(=FOCE=)[BRC][VC:Ebony]

JMac
ComNet Veteran
 
[VE-DJO] Dark Jedi Knight (DJK)
[VE-NAVY] Lt. Commander (LCM)
 
Post Number:  1029
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  RE: Good-bye VE
April 5, 2002 9:43:55 AM    View the profile of JMac 
Lw's e-mail said that he was sorry this had happened.  It sounded like he had fallen for the joke hook, line, and sinker and was saying goodbye the the VE, not resigning in anger of the joke.
 
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[army] Fishman
FM/LCRW JMac/Aegis 3-4/Aegis 12/(=A=)(MC1)
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
"In order to find his equal an Irishman is forced to talk to God."
- Braveheart
Crack pilot and thickheaded conservative
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