/me ooohhhhs and aaaahhhhhs over DH and Spart's long posts Those have to be THE longest posts i've ever seen in my life...I've gotta save me :P /me quietly stays out of the conversation because nobody cares what a 14 year old thinks about national wars and such
 
-----------------------
FM/SRCRW Rukh/Aegis 3-2/1/mSSD Atrus/VE/VE/[=A=][=SA=] Dillon "Rukh" Lazar
Aegis Squadron Flight Three Member Two, Astral Guard Member, Lusthawk Ten
TRN/UNI Rukh/Deathscythe/VE/VEDJ Dillon "Phoenix" Lazar

Screw you. Oh look! I made a ryme. /me dances around and then trips because his bad knee can't hold him up
 
-----------------------
FM/SRCRW Rukh/Aegis 3-2/1/mSSD Atrus/VE/VE/[=A=][=SA=] Dillon "Rukh" Lazar
Aegis Squadron Flight Three Member Two, Astral Guard Member, Lusthawk Ten
TRN/UNI Rukh/Deathscythe/VE/VEDJ Dillon "Phoenix" Lazar

I just got back from a trip to NYC to visit some relatives and read these last posts.  i don't feel like rewriting everything, so I will make a new paragraph for each statement.  First of all, we may be in a long war.  I believe it will take a long time but as a great man once said; "peace is not the absence of war, it is people living in the sheild of justice and love."  That means, what good is a lack of fighting if to do so you must give up your rights and the freedom to do what is right.  That isn't peace, that is a mockery of it. I will not even acknoledge the second thing in this post.  I will adress cults such as daoism in a seperate subject.  By the way, just about every "religion would consider what Bin Laden did as evil, not just Christianity. There has always been someone to fight because there has always been the work of Satan in our world.  Even if the battle for justice and good was neverending, (which it isn't, the end of the world and Satan's reign is right in the book of Revelation), doesn't mean it is not a battle worth fighting. Spart's last paragraph had nothing to do with what I said, he quoted me and then went off on a seperate tangent, but I will answer it anyway.  We are not fighting a war for perpetual peace, there is no such thing asnd will be no such thing untill the battle of the Apocolypse.  We are fighting to bring as monster to justice.  Following this, we will do all in our power to stop the slaughter of innocent people.  I believe that I already gave the difference of a terrorist versus a freedom fighter in an earlier post, so there is no need for me to do so again. "Love all that is good, but rebuke evil at every turn.'
 
-----------------------
[army] Fishman
FM/LCRW JMac/Aegis 3-4/Aegis 12/(=A=)
"I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be unfair in my favor?."
"Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines."
Tall, dark, handsome, and all around stud.

---

Bear: Did we bomb Libya? No. Did we make trade sanctions against Libya? No. Why? Ah, yes. They were willing to sell us their oil. They gave us what we wanted; we didn't bomb them.  Afghanistan hasn't given us what we wanted... Bin Laden.

---

Afghanistan is the second largest resource of oil in the world . . . and it is almost entirely untapped as well.  It has enough oil in its barren, windswept deserts to support the United States for over two centuries.  It also will be, according to an intriguing statement made by Dick Cheney several years ago during his shadowy days as a powerful figure in the oil industry, the most important strategic position in the world during the coming decades.  Gee whiz! And to think we just happen to have this strategic position fall into our laps in a bizarre twist of fate, eh?  We must be truly blessed.  I wonder if Bin Laden realized that by bombing the World Trade Centers, he empowered America's international holdings even further?  If he knew now, would he do it again? Also, during the mid-1990s, representatives of the Taliban regime were flown from Afghanistan to Texas, U.S.A. where they met with George Bush, Sr. (yes, the father of our current President) and various international oil barons to discuss whether or not the Taliban would let oil corporations move in and extract the oil for a paltry sum.  The Taliban representatives said no.  Perhaps they signed their death warrant when they did so? I wonder how far international oil industries, e.g. the notorious Seven Sisters, would go to acquire an untapped oil resource with enough juice to soak the world two times over?  I still remember my history teacher being reticent to discuss the role of international bankers in the destruction of the Maine that started the Spanish-American war, the role of the media in the creation of the Franco-Prussian war, the fact that J.P. Morgan financed both Adolf Hitler and Franklin Roosevelt during World War II, and that President Lyndon B. Johnson bought thousands of dollars in stock pertaining to military equipment (e.g. Bell Helicopter company) before committing the United States into Vietnam.  By the time Vietnam ended, President Johnson was a multi-billionaire.  Some call it business; others call it blood money.  Either way, it is always distasteful when the most respected members/elements of society are revealed to be common cutthroats capable of despicable deeds. I also wonder why both the Central Intelligence Agency (once headed by George Bush, Sr.) and a Five Arrows corporation would be involved in funding terrorist activities?  Why would a notoriously shady agency riddled with questionable individuals with strange connections to the oil industry and an international oil corporation want to do with terrorists?  Heck, there are enough agent provocateurs in the C.I.A. alone to start the third world war, you would think they did not need to fund outsiders.  Then again, since "the war on terrorism" is a global campaign that kind of makes it the "third world war" doesn't it? By the way, have you heard about the reconstruction plans for Afghanistan?  It involves roughly two dozen international oil industries that were previously irked they could not "get some action" in Afghanistan and a little known "Turkmenistan-Pakistan pipeline" that Forbes Magazine said could be the wealthiest oil pipeline ever created.  One may only imagine what certain unscrupulous men may have done to make this pipeline become a reality. So, what is Afghanistan?  A country on the surface which appears to be a third-world worthless scrap, but is actually one of the richest countries in the world just ripe for the picking.  I wonder why the media fails to mention this?  Is it possibly that our six major news networks, owned by either Michael Eisner or Gerald Levin, might be inclined not tell the American public?  As we know, both Michael Eisner and Gerald Levin are board members of the Five Arrows, Inc. governing committee that is heavily involved in the reconstruction of Afghanistan and the millions to be made therein.  It would be rather silly for them to report about their own questionable activities via the news networks they officially own themselves, wouldn't it?  That is like asking a murderer to confess when only he knows he has committed the crime.

---

LoneWolf: Wars only result in temporary peace till all the people who forget the pains of war have died.

---

I think you wanted "remember" in place of "forget", but that is one of the best, single, self-supporting, one-line statements to have been made in this thread.  It is amazing how there are a million self-made quotes in countless signatures on this message board, yet little gems like this go unnoticed/unrecorded. There are tons of profound remarks from a great many individuals contributing to this thread (you, JMac, LoneWolf, Darkhawk, Bear, Argon Viper, etc.).  A large portion of these statements would probably be remebered forever . . . if we were famous people or involved in a publicized debate.

---

JMac: First of all, we may be in a long war. I believe it will take a long time but as a great man once said; "peace is not the absence of war, it is people living in the shield of justice and love."

---

There is another famous quote that, paraphrased, says innocent individuals sleep comfortably at night because violent men are ready to commit hideous deeds to protect them.  Is this adage morally correct?  Is love and peace truly acquired through hate and violence?  Do we create "good" by dispensing "evil"?  If we sow hatred in our fields, are we to reap love in return?

---

JMac: Just about every religion would consider what Bin Laden did as evil, not just Christianity.

---

My uncle, to the condescending disdain of my more "socially concerned" relatives, dabbles in the study of strange liturgies, cults, and religions. You would be surprised the thousands upon thousands of religions which worship . . . a very, very different God (if not "gods") that is malignant, cruel, and callous.  In fact, there are entire countries in the world (Haiti, for instance) that officially worship evil and those who refuse to believe either good or evil exists.  Are we to eliminate entire countries because they have adopted a religion different to ours?  Doesn't that infringe upon our revered Bill of Rights?  One may see the legal ramifications of a "war on terrorism" upon which we trample the freedom of religion -- one of the very things this war purports to be protecting.  It is rather ironic that to preserve freedom, we have to take it away from certain people, is it not?  Yet another question crops of how many people we may deprive of their freedom of choice (i.e. those who worship different religions or believe in certain ideas) to ensure the freedom of others.  What happens when we have deprived more people of "freedom" than those we have saved?  Have we not, in a rash attempt to salvage "freedom", damaged it even further?  Is it possible, if not unintentionally or indirectly, the "war on terrorism" may easily do just that?

---

JMac: Spart's last paragraph had nothing to do with what I said, he quoted me and then went off on a separate tangent.

---

My last paragraph was attempting to summarize what I had mentioned.  Also, in my other paragraphs, I was attempting to clarify, interpret your remarks then ask more questions.  I will assume, however, my interpretations were incorrect.

---

JMac: We are not fighting a war for perpetual peace, there is no such thing and will be no such thing until the battle of the Apocalypse.

---

Therefore, perpetual war for perpetual peace will exist . . . but does not at the moment?  Perhaps the "war on terrorism" is the very beginning of the battle of the Apocalypse if not one of the early, lesser skirmishes?

---

JMac: [ . . .] we will do all in our power to stop the slaughter of innocent people.

---

No individual who is morally inclined is against "stopping" the slaughter of innocent people.  The problem lies in the methods in which the "stopping" is done.  For example, take the film "Dirty Harry" which was unfavorably received by film critics upon its original release.  Why was it disliked?  People do not mind watching crime stopped, but when you have an individual executing people without a trial . . . it is a little unsettling.  Again, the disagreement is not on the "stopping", but how the "stopping" is done. Then again, the very definition of who may be labeled an innocent person that does not deserve being slaughtered is thought-provoking.  No mortal is truly innocent.  We are human and prone to error.  We all have faults: Some more than others.  As Clint Eastwood's disgruntled character in the motion picture Unforgiven attempted to explain . . . "We all have it coming, kid."  Is this statement saying everyone deserves to be mercilessly slaughtered?  Possibly.  But perhaps it also contains a second message that, upon reflection, no one deserves to be slaughtered.

---

Argon Viper: These three religions all follow one holy book (the Torah, also known as the Old Testament), they believe that all others are wrong on every issue, and they don't tolerate others.

---

Judaism places the Talmud first, then the Torah second.

---

Argon Viper: Well, that's my rant, hope you enjoyed it.

---

I think you have some very insightful comments (as does everyone contributing to this thread . . . ok, maybe Rukh's "Screw you!" comment was a little too intellectually profound for my simple mind to grasp, but other than that . . . ).  I agree -- for whatever my agreement is worth (which isn't much, hehe) -- with a great many of your opinions, but I have some small quirks with others.  The idea of the Vast Empire collective trying to do so some good, be it pacifism or activism, in this world is very appealing.  I have not slept in almost two days . . . so I will have to type a response later . . . after breakfast!   ----------------------- His fate was destined to a foreign strand, A petty fortress and a "humble" hand; He left the name at which the world grew pale, To paint a moral, or adorn a tale. --- Johnson for Charles of Sweden

The fun thing I've seen about this thread is how people are - by point of discussion, "clarification", and otherwise arm-twisting and dropping of names - working to prove their point as correct.  Not that we should be different from anywhere else in RL. It has been good to find one place online where respect and civility are somewhat maintained.  So in that regard, I hope everyone is enjoying the discussion Sniper started for us. We all live in different lands, deal with different attitudes and prejudices every day, thus we all come to different thoughts on life. I'd love to cherish all forms of life like Argon does and I really wish the world could be like that.  But some parts aren't and some do die both for and against that very goal.  Strange to love life, then take it from another, but I don't begrudge those who do that task...and I don't believe Argon would either. At the same time, I can see why people feel righteously indignant and want to hunt down others who either overtly or covertly against "our" way of life.  Then again, maybe this season's Survivor really sucked...who knows? Point is, their thoughts and feelings do matter in the discussion, whether or not you believe them to be correct. However, if you feel the need to bring outside information in to defend your point of view...cite where you found them. For my two cents, it comes down to this.  Eventually we have to stop propping up regimes that lock down their societies so tightly that their only outlet for blame is other countries...in this case the US and Israel.  If you can't address social wrongs in a public forum, you will only lash out at what you can. We've got generations of people who hate us simply for the fact that their anger couldn't be aimed anywhere else.  In this country you can hear liberals bashing big companies, conservatives bashing big government, basically everyone gets to spout their opinion.  Granted, it's led to talk shows and other such pap, but I'd rather be able to speak my mind than harbor an unscratchable itch of complaint all my life.  By living on a college campus, I know a ton of international students who have been pretty frank lately about how things work back "home".  Even here in Oklahoma - not the most enlightened of the 50 states, mind you - they have found people, Americans that is, to be quite a welcome surprise as to what they have been led to expect.  It's nice to see that we, just as ordinary people, can dispel years of propaganda in a few mere months. In this regard, conspiracy theories, large quasi-governmental organizations and other untouchable agencies very well may be toying with all of us....happens every day.  But if we give millions of dollars to those who allow the spread of these messages of hate to stop any attacks on them, they are we really doing ourselves a favor?  Just a thought.
 
-----------------------
CMP CMDR/MAJ Fury/1CMP/1BAT/1RGT/VEA/TADATH/VE [SotE:HC][SotE:VEA][IOC]
Shopkeeper - Imperial Center

/me bows graciously in the direction of Grrl Fury. Thank you for accepting my challenge  Also, when i say challenge, I mean just that. It is very easy to kill someone, heck, I know about fifty different ways to do it with my bare hands. But to resist this very powerful urge(I'm going to check what evolutional advantage that has) is another thing. As to Fury's comment about me not blaming those who kill, I agree. If I blamed them, it would simply lead to more killing. However, there are a couple people I agree that killing them was right. Hitler is one of them. What he did robbed him of any humanlike feelings I may have had toward him, genecide is an inexcsable crime. However, Osama bin Laden has not sunk to that level yet, he is waging a war to try to defend what we are encroaching on. Jmac, you've been advocating simply killing him, but I'd like to ask you something, don't fall asleep, I'm going to pretty in-depth. Imagine that Iran is now the world power, and the US has been reduced to a third world nation. The Iranians come in looking for uranium, a cheap, efficient source of power. The US government bows and scrapes and grants their every wish in exchange for bribes payed to the Bush family, the new monarchy. They come in, bringing their own workers, and mine the uranium, reaping massive profits for themselves and the Bush family, but nothing for the people. People gather to protest this injustice, but the Bush's turn tanks and automatic weapons loose on them. Iran turns the other way. More and more people show up to these protests, and are massacred. Iran still doesn't care, they're getting what they want. Meanwhile, the Bush's start putting up posters, giving speeches, and doing other things to demonize the Iranians in our minds, putting these atrocities on their shoulders. The US public, after years of abuse, become numbed to the Bush's and focus their rage outward, toward Iran. A wealthy businessman, say Bill Gates, stands up and starts an organization designed to punish the Iranians. They commit a few acts, minor really, but then they hit Tehran itself, destroying a monument to Iran along with thousands of people. Iran is pissed, they talk for a few days, and then start bombing Washington State, where Bill Gates lives. The only problem is that no one has seen Gates for a few weeks, they're not even sure he's there anymore. But the Iranians are out for blood, they don't care if they bomb everything in Washington to dust, they want Gates. And all the while, the Bush's sit, secure, on the other side of the country, getting their bribes, and turning out their anit-Iranian propoganda. Now, wouldn't you be attacking the Iranians by any reasonable means available to you? That's what bin Laden's doing. Thank you for listening. BTW, it's too bad this debate isn't nationalized, there are a lot of lessons people could learn by listening to us(and not just my side of the argument.) However, I still disagree with killing bin Laden, what we should be doing is reconstructing the system that producd him, then we won't have to go through this same thing over again in ten to fifteen years. As to the businesses, I don't doubt that they're capable of horrendous crimes, and neither is the US government. In fact, there are a few groups who could sue the US right now for human rights violations in the past. Let me name some of them right now, you should know why. Blacks Indians Hawaiians Chinese Vietnamese(the country, remember the war) Communists and recently: Islamics(heard of the Bush roundup?) I think the problem is that people think in terms of black and white, they see the Taliban as black(granted, they're pretty dark, but not black) and so, naturally, the US must be white. In reality, it's pretty dark shades of grey for both. Thank you for listening to my rant here. /me takes a bow. [OOC - I still challenge people to take the oath.  Just some clarification, it's not an oath of non-violence, it's an oath to prevent something that cannot be taken back.]
 
-----------------------
Argon Viper
"History is on the move, those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance, and those who get in our way will not watch at all" - Grand Admiral Thrawn
"He who knows his enemy, needs not fear confrontation" - Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
"Insanity is not a mental condition, it's a way of life" - Argon Viper
"Those who run from death, win little.  Those who simply live their lives, win much" - Argon Viper

First of all let me answer a few things that Argon said.  I do not believe that your analogy was an accurate depiction.  There are always shades of grey, not black and white, but there are still things that are darker then others.  We did nothing to the Arabs, in fact, we are enriching them through our oil trade.  Osama's attack was totally unwarrented.  Also, we are not acting like the Iranians did in your analogy.  Had we gone into Afganistan right away, ( as many people wanted to in the heat of the moment), we would have become what we hated.  Instead we waited.  We gathered proof.  Once we had enough proof, we demanded that Afganistan turn over Bin Laden and his Terrorist Network.  They refused.  So we followed through on our ultimatum.  I do not believe that was wrong, in fact, we took an oppresive regime out of power and freed the people.  This is not a war about religion, to our side anyway.  We are not taking away people's freedom of religion, nor are we targeting people due to their religion.  We are going after a criminal, the government that sheltered him enough to allow him to do his murderous deeds, as well as the network he used to do them. America did treat many people badly, though that is no longer the case.  Let me use for examp[le, the recent bill to pay reparations to the black community for slavery.  had any slaves still been alive, that would have been fine.  None are, and that makes the bill an absurdity.  We might as well tell Great Britain to repay the Irish back for the potato famine.  I do not like the statement that we are becoming a militaristic society.  Have you forgotten that the freedom that grants you the right to say what you want and be free was paid for by the blood of our military, who still today are willing to give their lives to protect us.  They are heros to be praised, not outcasts to be scorned. Finally, I will not take your oath.  I will pledge to never take an innocent life, nor will I take a life in anger.  I will use deadly force, however, to protect myself, my family, and my country should it be necessary. "For I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free.  And I won't forget the men who died, who gave that right to me. And I'll gladly stand up, next to you, and defend her still today.  For God knows I love this land.  God bless the USA!"
 
-----------------------
[army] Fishman
FM/LCRW JMac/Aegis 3-4/Aegis 12/(=A=)
"I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be unfair in my favor?."
"Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines."
Tall, dark, handsome, and all around stud.

Hey!  NO need to degenerate this!  If you think I am wrong, say how, but don't just start name calling!
 
-----------------------
[army] Fishman
FM/LCRW JMac/Aegis 3-4/Aegis 12/(=A=)
"I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be unfair in my favor?."
"Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines."
Tall, dark, handsome, and all around stud.

I am sure that America is totally right here!  We were attacked in a time of peace, we are responding.  What is wrong with that.  As for lives, I am aware of that.  The death of a human is a tragedy, but sometimes when a person loses their concience they must be stopped to avoid a greater evil.  I would appreciate iot if you could say what you think I am missing because I do not see it.
 
-----------------------
[army] Fishman
FM/LCRW JMac/Aegis 3-4/Aegis 12/(=A=)
"I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be unfair in my favor?."
"Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines."
Tall, dark, handsome, and all around stud.

I don't know what you mean about me knifing you in the back, but let me elaborate on peace.  Peace in my opinion is more then just a lack of war.  It is people living together with understanding, justice, and freedom.  I know there has never been peace.  That does not make it any less worth striving for.  Men have always strived to live the impossible dream.  It is what makes us human.  What you were saying about just laying down our weapons and letting ourselves be taken over for the sake of world peace, that wouldn;'t make peace, that would create tyranny.  If we just give in, we have lost far more then our lives.  We have lost the the impossible dream.  We have lost all that our ancestors gave their blood and sweat for.  We have lost our souls.   ----------------------- [army] Fishman FM/LCRW JMac/Aegis 3-4/Aegis 12/(=A=) "I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be unfair in my favor?." "Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines." Tall, dark, handsome, and all around stud.

Lonewolf (I think) made a very good point about Hitler deserving to die. After seeing various TV programmes (Band of Brothers), Documentaries (World at War) and films (Schindlers List), it is nigh on impossible to defeat the argument that Hitler had to die. In my opinion, Hitler was a millitary leader, fighting against what he believed was wrong. In his case, it was the Russians.. the war with Great Britain, and later the United States, was a mistake which he had not planned to make. HIs hatred was purely for the Russians and the Jewish people. Adolf Hitler was a corporal (later promoted, I think) in the first world war, fighting in Russia. He saw things that people nowadays can't even dream about. He saw his friends cut down with bayonets, his comrades blow apart by huge shells, and his officers being killed by unseen enemy snipers. Stalingrad, in ww2, was hell, but ww1 was perhaps far worse (mainly because there was a lot more hand-to-hand combat, rather than firing at an enemy 500 metres away with a tank). No doubt Hitler lost a lot of his friends in the Eastern Front, between 1914 and 1917. And (this is an important bit), like us, he had to direct his anger at someone, much like we have to after September 11th. Who did he direct it on? The Russians and the Jews, which had helped the Russians a great deal (it should be noted that before the 1917 Russian revolution, there was a large population of Jewish people in the country. After the revolution, the Jewish population dropped sharply.) I've seen people on TV, and in newspapers, directing their anger directly at Bin Laden, and, in some cases, at the Muslim people on the whole, because of their right-wing fundamental attitudes. My point is this: Human beings need someone to direct their anger at. I'm sure a lot of you know that, especially after September 11th (JMac should in particular). Hitler directed his anger at the Russians and the Jews. Wrongly, perhaps? Bin Laden is directing his anger at the Americans and the Westerners. Wrongly, perhaps? Hitler was a victim himself. His friends were killed by Russian soldiers - but we can't know for sure what he had against the Jewish people. If the Allies (Soviet Union, GB, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Greece, etc) had executed Hitler, would we not have sparked the same thing off again? Somebody would have looked at the Allies executing Hitler, not thinking about the facts, and presumed that the Allies were evil and should be wiped off the face of the earth. We would then have inadvertedly created a NEW HITLER. Think about it.. We, the Westerners, have done something wrong somewhere along the line.. and.. you guessed it.. we have created a new Hitler. Only this time.. he's called Bin Laden. Hitler and Bin Laden were victims- Hitler of war, and Bin Laden of seeing corruption spread throgh the world (or something along those lines). Killing Hitler.. and Bin Laden.. would have, and will make new Hitlers, and new Bin Ladens - surely we should be trying to stop that?
 
-----------------------
TO/LCM Bear/Raptor 1-2/VE/VEN/(=A=) (=SA=) (=MA=) (=FOCE=) (=JCPA=) (=SCPA=) [BRC] [BRC] [NDM] [LSM]

Lieutenant Commander Bear
Navy Training Officer

Vast Empire Assistant Ambassador

Hitler and Bin Laden are very much alike!  Both are/were insane, both were violent, both were delusional, and both we twistedly brilliant.  Both also made the mistake of going to far.  People nowadays are basically  concerned with the status quo.  They want  something done about world hunger that they hear  about on  the TV News just as long as they don't need to get out of their armchairs to do it themselves.  But when something  gets to be so blatently wrong that they can't ignore it, they feel a need to right the wrongs.  No-one did a thing when Hitler came to power.  They did nothing when he began building an empire.  They were only bothered when Hitler began VISABLY massacaring people by the thousands and hitting close to home.  Likewise, We did nothing when Bin Laden was building up his network.  Next to nothing was done when he blew up our embassy.  When  he had suicide bombers go after the Cole one innefectual rocket  was shot off by a president who wanted to take the public's  view away from himself. Now we are going after  him after he increased the scope of his attacks, not the form or the MO.  So I believe a lot of comparison may be drawn between Hitler and Bin Laden. Now, on to what we are doing, what else can you do.  You can't reason with a man who is so blatently evil and morally corrupt.  He is not going after us because of some past wrong.  He is going after us because we are American and free, rather then Arabic and Islamic.  The only thing that might oppease him is giving in.  He hit us at our embassy.  We did not stop him.  Then he hgit the Cole.  We did nothing.  He then hit the world trade center.  Am I the only one seeing a pattern of increase here?  Had we not responded as we did, what would he hit next?  We found plans for nuclear weapons when we were searching  for him. Do you really think he would stop there, or that he would not use weapons of mass destruction.  He had to be stopped.
 
-----------------------
[army] Fishman
FM/LCRW JMac/Aegis 3-4/Aegis 12/(=A=)
"I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be unfair in my favor?."
"Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines."
Tall, dark, handsome, and all around stud.

JMac, you have some valid arguments and, in my humble opinion, America would possibly never have existed on the face of this earth without believers in “men-of-action” as yourself. Argon Viper, Bear and LoneWolf have their compelling points of view as well and show that supporters of pacifism definitely have had an influence, are having an influence and will have future influence on the unfolding events which transpire on our planet. I also admire Fury’s underlying duality.  It is something I sincerely hope, if it is possible, to eventually achieve in my political outlook. Since this conversation – as thought provoking as it is – could very well last indefinitely, I shall respectfully bow out of this discussion with the satisfaction of having heard many intriguing statements/ideas and possibly having been enlightened as to the wide-range of opinions.  New Year’s Eve and a new semester approaches, I doubt I will have time to continue actively participating in this thread. I only regret that GM_Sniper did not return to see how large his philosophical thread on the World Trade Center attacks has grown.  He might be speechless. . . . and with that, I cash in my chips, gentlemen!   ----------------------- His fate was destined to a foreign strand, A petty fortress and a "humble" hand; He left the name at which the world grew pale, To paint a moral, or adorn a tale. --- Johnson for Charles of Sweden

Germany was in a great depression after ww1 so Hitler brought it from its struggled state. and as for Bin Ladin if you have forgotten hes a freaking millionare remember that was all over the news at the beggining of all this.
 
-----------------------
PO1 LoneWolf /Aegis 1-2 (Aegis Two)/mSSD Atrus/VEN/VE/(=A=)(=JCPA=)[SRC]

"Aegis Squadron we dont need to improve because were already the BEST!"

"Creativity is not a gift but a disease it will infect more people it is presented to."
-PO1 LoneWolf
Navy's best pilot

First off, here's my response to Argon: WORD! I agree 100% with what you said. The Eastern philosophies are golden, and the western ones suck. Horribly. Here's my rebuttle of what JMac was talking about: Everything is wrong with Capitalism. Even through September 11th, which shocked people thousands of miles away (though I can't see why) capitalized off of tragedy. How low can one person get?! I mean really, the main rule of Capitalists is profit over people, throughly and clearly. This has been seen today, and tomorrow and forever in the US. No chance in hell we are going to a Communist or even a Socialist society, and don't even attempt to tell me that those or governments, or you will get a stern smack across the face from yours truly. They are systems of economy that often times GIVE WAY to a system of government, totalitarian, for instance, but they are not systems of Government directly. Capitalists--true capitalists have several goals in mind--to make more money to make more money to make more money to die rich, and give only your "hard-earned" profits to senators to buy your way past political red tape. Often, in fact in more cases than often, the capitalists get their profits from sweatshop labor in far-off places. Indonesia, China, Japan, Cambodia, Siam, to name a few. Capitalism drives men to the furthest of evil extremes. True that Communism doesn't work all that great, I mean it's a Utopian society for cryin' out loud, give it a break! But take for instance, Poland, I think, who had an extremley successful Socialist Democracy in place until JUST RECENTLY! The only reason they changed was because everyone  either switched to Capitalism, or was there already. One could argue that the rest of the world uses the metric system, and America uses the foot and mile system, but it's just because the voting American majority are Republicans who don't listen to anyone but John "I hate Gays" Ashcroft, George "Strategery" Bush, and Dick "Satan Incarnate" Cheney. The Politicians don't exactly help, either. They do not work for the state. Instead, they work for the dollar, to persue the agenda of themselves, and to persue the agenda of the party that they originate from. The United States of America is no longer a republic, but in fact an aristocracy of politicians and big-talking top brass who are too inflated on their own sense of ego and power to bother to notice what happens around them until someone crashes a plane into two bulidings, at which point they feel the urge to kill half a million innocent citizens with bombs, and then send food packets to "Smooth things over," so that the American people can stand, without an informed opinion, behind their war on terrorism--a concept of all things--and justify killing civilans and innocent persons in the name of justice and peace. WHO MAKES THE DECISIONS? THE POLITICIANS! WHO MAKES THE BOMBS? THE PEOPLE! Read, and self-educate through experience. Power to the people, and oppression is a cut. Activism is the pressure to seal it. That was throughly fun. I live and eat Philosophy. Argon, read Nietzsche. You'll love him. He's my soul mate, as far as I'm concerned.
 
-----------------------
TRP/1PFC GM_Sniper/4SQD/1PLT/1COMP/1BAT/Tadath/VEA {LoR}