I was going to post something about Tuesday's events sooner, but you know how things go.  However, now that I have had some time to think about it, I found an article that pretty much sums up what I think about this crap.  It's from Leonard Pitts, a columnist from the Miami Herald. "We'll go forward from this moment.  It's my job to have something to say. They pay me to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles the American soul. But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering. You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard. What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you  failed. Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause. Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve. Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together. Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon  mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God. Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals. IN PAIN Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some Hollywood block-buster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel. Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and, probably, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before. But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice. I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future. In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad.  But determined, too.  Unimaginably determined. THE STEEL IN US You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we will rise in defense of all that we cherish. So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know what you just started. But you're about to learn."

/me hears a mention of faith.  Agent, please don't use faith to show someone as good, it offends me(honestly, it does.).  The people who did this were acting with their faith, the Aztecs acted by their faith, Hitler(yes Hitler) used the bible to justify his genocide.  I don't mind if you use faith in reference or anything else, but please don't use it to say that someone is good.  Thank you. Argon(yes, I am an athiest, I admit that freely)

Faith can be good and faith can be bad.  As is the circle of life as we know it.  If it offends you then life itself should offend you as faith is all around us, enveloping us all involuntarily.  You have faith in that of being an athiest so in your own words you offend yourself. I liked Double Agent's cut and paste post.  It was very patriotic and it pretty much sums up a lot of what most Americans are feeling these days. All I can say and recommend is for everyone to not get carried away with the narrow mindedness that often follows a set of beliefs (whether its Athiesm, Christianity, or Muslim, or whatever).  Keep in mind this world is made up of a number of beliefs and we all share the same goal...Peace.  Sometimes there can be no peace without bloodshed.  However, the ultimate goal is always...peace. Terrorism follows the belief to cause as much harm as possible to a large amount of people in a public forum.  Hopefully, we can all come together to get rid of this belief.

Majere, I have no objection to others having faith, or of faith being mentioned on this comnet.  I DO have an objection to faith being used to mean "good".  As you know, even these terrorists had FAITH that what they were doing was right.  You can talk about religion all you want(just don't try to convert me or I'll use Occam's Razor on you  ), just don't use it that way.  As to the terrorists, I believe that the worst possible act in international violence(mainly war) is the deliberate targeting of civilians.  Sure, the US has killed it's share of civilians, but did it mean to?  No.  These people have deliberately attacked large civilian buildings.  I agree that the strike on the Pentagon was militarily viable, but there can be no excuse for crashing two planes(full of more civilians I might add) into two massively populated civilian buildings. Argon Viper

I have a couple of things to say: First, Don't let a couple of lines take away from the great meaning in this article.  I think the main part of the "Faith" line is, "We are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do it."  To me this says that just because you may not like our culture does not mean it is wrong.  The article mentions faith only once and if you are only seeing that you are losing the meaning of the entire piece.  I am a Christian.  You might be different, but please, respect my right to talk about it and i will respect yours to not do so.  I believe we need faith in a time like this--faith in our god, maybe, or faith in our friends and family.  Faith in our ability to go on after such a tragedy.  Faith in SOMETHING.  This faith gives us strength in the face of tragedy, and I think this cannot be a bad thing.  This may sound stupid but it is the truth.  If my friend is shipped out to Afghanistan I will pray for him every night, whether YOU think it will make a difference or not, and whether I think so, too!  So please, don't criticize peoples' use of faith, religion, etc., because we respect your atheism when we could very well try to pick it apart.  But I respect peoples' beliefs too much to do that. Also, in response to Cosmic, I read over the article several times but i found no "swear words".  Sorry if i misunderstand what u said, but I don't see how anyone over 5 years old would find any of the words offensive.  Have a talk with me later and I will see what i can do, but please, again, don't let one minor detail take away from the meaning. Thank you

I'm coming into this argument a bit  late, but nevertheless. On the subject of the "Faith" of the terrorists... 1) Islamic law prohibits the killing of civilians in war. Therefore the terrorists have commited a crime against God by their law. 2) Jyhad dictates a perpetual war against unbelievers, but guess what? Not to long ago Christians and Jews were not considered unbelievers! God, Allah, and Yaweh are all the same guy, and all three religions are considered by Islam as valid teachings of God. Considering there are no great contridictions between them, that should be understandable. 3) no matter what faith the attackers had in their actions, this attack WAS an attack on our faith as christian americans. It is vitally important that we show that our faith remains. 4) and lastly... Be careful about applying occam's razor to the question of religion, Argon. You may find that the simplest answer is one you don't want to believe
 
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Leftenant/Srg Maj Geist/ Fallen Angel

It is not the height of excellence to see a victory apparent to the common man, nor to fight and conquer and earn the praise of the kingdom. To lift an autumn hair is no sign of strength; to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight; to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear.
--Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

4) As a student of the sciences raised by scientists, I know full well that the majority of the time science cannot give you the answers. There are more things to life, Argon, then are told about in your new religion. 3) Any attack against the western world is an attack on the fundamental pillars that built it. Whether you like it or not, Chrisitanity is one of those pillars. If you ever ask yourself how God could allow this, then there's your effect. 2) All of which are forms of war, merely played out on a smaller scale and a more peaceful battlefield. And the principles of the Jyhad (which actually is an acceptable spelling) predate the crusades. 1) Hitler thought the Jews were a cancer on Germany. These madmen tell children it is their god given duty to strap explosives to themselves and blow up CIVILIANS. I don't care if Osama Bin Laden and his ilk call us the Great Satan. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM HAS COMMITED CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.
 
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Leftenant/Srg Maj Geist/ Fallen Angel

It is not the height of excellence to see a victory apparent to the common man, nor to fight and conquer and earn the praise of the kingdom. To lift an autumn hair is no sign of strength; to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight; to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear.
--Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

five years before world war 2 we ignored the sinking of one of our gunboats by the japanese airforce. When Pearl Harbor happened we were gripped in a rage that marched us across the pacific and burned Japan's largest cities to ashes. America, like God, is slow to anger but terrible in its retribution. As for the other part, I don't think you give religion a fair evaluation. I know a lot of people who say "we know god made the heavens and the earth, we still aren't sure how, but we would love to figure it out." Religion and science are not adversaries, and quite frequently they are the exact same thing. Here's a story I have told at least once. One man says he worships god, another man says he follows the sciences. The man that follows the sciences tells the man that worships god that he is being foolish. Science holds the answers. The man that worships God smiles and asks the scientist if he believes in the big bang. The scientist says yes. The believer responds, saying that despite years of research science has not produced any hard evidence of the occurence of the big bang that can stand up to scrutiny (true story!). All "evidence" of the big bang exists in mathematical models that cannot be proven or disproven. The scientist gets impatient and says that science will unravel the secrets of the world in due time. We can't be expected to know everything yet (also a true story, you have no idea how many times I have heard this). The believer smiles again, and asks the scientist if he is an athiest. The scientist snickers and says he would think that was obvious. The believer smiles yet again and says the answer really is obvious, the scientist isn't. He then wishes the scientist luck with figuring out his god and walks away. I haven't been trying to convert you Argon. I don't do that sort of thing. I just wanted to point out to you that you aren't an athiest. You are as religious as I am.
 
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Leftenant/Srg Maj Geist/ Fallen Angel

It is not the height of excellence to see a victory apparent to the common man, nor to fight and conquer and earn the praise of the kingdom. To lift an autumn hair is no sign of strength; to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight; to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear.
--Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

1) As the believer said. Good luck in figuring out your God. 2) Actually, US casualties for an invasion of Japan were predicted to run well over a million. And given what we witnessed during the operations at Iwo Jima and Okinawa, we had every reason to believe that casualties on the japanese side would have been far higher. The atomic bombs together killed aproximately half a million, including later aftereffects. That was a tactically reasonable action in a time when cold mathematics governs things. What I was refering to was the firebombing of Tookyoo and other cities. These had little more effect on the enemy's war machine than conventional bombing, and could only be described as a means to punish the japanese. In fact they killed more civilians than both of the atomic bombs. 2.1) The president and the military knows what they are doing. We've had vietnam, we've had a chance to learn from the soviet mistakes when they invaded Afganistan. And so far our guys are doing this operation EXACTLY RIGHT. I know that lots of people have no faith in our president and his ability to get things done because he has trouble expressing himself in public. People like to think he's a stupid man. Being someone who has even more trouble expressing himself in public, I have no tollerance for that. 3) I never said it was aimed exclusively at christianity.
 
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Leftenant/Srg Maj Geist/ Fallen Angel

It is not the height of excellence to see a victory apparent to the common man, nor to fight and conquer and earn the praise of the kingdom. To lift an autumn hair is no sign of strength; to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight; to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear.
--Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

Well, the president and his boys have been keeping their mouth shut about what they intend to do, but heres what I have heard in terms of actual actions being taken: 1) Us and the brits have had spec ops teams scouting since the 13th. Learning the ground. 2) The units actually being called up are elements of light infantry divisions. One specifically mentioned today was the 10th mountain. These are not invasion forces. They lack the heavy equipment for invading or the strategic manueverability to conduct mobile offensive warfare. What they are especilially good at is going in in small units and making key targets disapear. In essence, kill teams. 3) This operation was described by the prez as requiring the use of Airpower and "special ground forces". At no time has he or any of his staff indicated that a conventional invasion of Afghanistan was being planned. 4) I submit that there is no indication that we intend to invade Afghanistan. I think there is every indication that we intend to violently make a number of antagonists disapear. As to why we are keeping up with this discussion, why not? Its fun sometimes to just ramble on about stuff
 
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Leftenant/Srg Maj Geist/ Fallen Angel

It is not the height of excellence to see a victory apparent to the common man, nor to fight and conquer and earn the praise of the kingdom. To lift an autumn hair is no sign of strength; to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight; to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear.
--Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

LOL!!!!  Go Fish!!!  Actaully, faith can be good or bad, depending on how it's used(do you realise how many born-again Christians I've had to meet?  ::shudders:.  Nice work Fish, you put into points what I've been trying to say the whole time.  Also, about Occam's Razor, the theory IS that all things being equal, the simplest answer is ALWAYS correct, we just don't have sophisticated enough measurements to be sure about that equal part.  You're also right that we need to see this from the terrorists point of view in order to defeat them, we can't defeat what we don't understand(wow, I should add that to my quotes...).  Also, the reason I argue so heavily AGAINST major military action is that I've heard the idea of nuking Afghanistan so many times it's making me sick    Oh well, that's all of the rant I have time for tonight(bedtime), and Geist, you're right, it IS fun to ramble  Argon

I must admit to being slightly confused. Is the US trying to take Bin Laden away from Afghanistan, or Afghanistan away from Bin Laden? Basically, is he the target, or is it the Taleban? I am also confused as to how the western world is "right" in this matter. Yes, Bin Laden has committed a terrible crime, and should be brought for justice for doing so, but who are we to judge on what is right and wrong in the world? Bin Laden notices that capitalism is, in a strange way, evil. I lived in the Middle East, where the Arabs were the upper classes, the Westerners were the middle classes and the East Asians were the lower classes. The lower people looked up in awe at me, because they thought I was some kind of "God", because of my countrys money. If you told one of them that there are homeless people in the UK and the US, I seriously doubt any would believe you. Another point to remember on this "Anti-Capitalism" topic, is the most famous man in history. A Jew, who overturned Jewish Capitalist Money-Lenders outside the great Synagogue in Jerusalem, 2000 years ago. I don't know his exact words, but I do know he called those money-lenders "cheats" and other such words, and said they were being dishonourable by not sharing their wealth. So, the Jew overturned the stalls, and let the money be picked up by the poor. If you think a bit about it, that man was saying Capitalism was evil, and we should share the wealth. Which is exactly what Usama Bin Laden appears to want as well. And in case you haven't worked out who that man was, it was Jesus Christ. The man who started the West's main religion. And, in a way, he is just like Bin Laden, although he never believed in killing. I believe that Bin Laden wants to overturn capitalism, just like Christ wanted to. One more thing I want to bring up: The issue of Ancient Islamic Law being "outdated". Before September, people were campaigning for the UN and NATO to make trade sanctions against the Taleban, and even bomb them, because they are following an "Outdated Islamic Code of Law". That "Outdated Law" says that Muslims must not kill innocent people to make their point, but can kill criminals. Westerners feel that that Law is outdated severely, and maybe Bin Laden does too. After all, the Russians killed innocent Afghan civilians, among others, and the Westerners (Americans and Europeans) have a string of "war crimes" behind them. For example, Iraq invaded Kuwait, so the Coalition sent stealth aircraft into Iraq and took out various targets, without warning. In the eyes of the people who hate the West for that, there is almost no differance between blowing up a radar station in Iraq and destroying the World Trade Center. I must stress that these are not my views. My views are a lot differant, and I would prefer not to discuss them here. One thing I feel I must voice my own opinion on, however, is the "Attack on the Western World". The destruction of the WTC was not an attack on the "Evil West", or the "Evil US", or "Evil Christianity". It was not an attack to show how evil the Westerners are, but an attack to show how GREAT the MUSLIM EXTREMISTS are. I myself have even less respect for them now than I ever did, but in the Muslim peoples eyes, Bin Laden probably looks like a re-incarnated Allah. Think of it like this: If Bin Laden could destroy a famous building in the West, he would look good. Famous buildings include : The WTC; The Empire State Building; Statue of Liberty; CNN Tower; Eiffel Tower; Big Ben; Houses of Parliament; Buckhingam Palace; etc.  If Bin Laden could destroy ANY of those, he would look very good to his supporters. But, you know what they say.. The Bigger the Better. Look at that list. Which building is biggest? The Statue of Liberty is how big? Quarter the size of the WTC? Half perhaps? I'm not really sure.. but destroying it would be far less impressive than destroying both the WTC towers. Bin Laden is thinking about making himself look better, not making the West look worse. So perhaps we can learn from him. Instead of making him look worse (by bombing Afghanistan), perhaps we could make ourselves look better? I'm not entirely sure how, but it is worth thinking about.. P.S. Please don't get at me for this. I am trying to voice an opinion that obviously not many people have considered.
 
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2nd Lieuteneant Bear
Kaph Squadron Commander
Navy Defense Medal
Long Service Medal

CMDR/2LT Bear/Kaph 1-1/1/mSSD Atrus/1ESF/VE/VEN/(=A=) [BRC] [NDM] [LSM]

Well, all I have to say about the peacefulness of Christianity is, have you read Levidicus 26?  Sick stuff about God ripping out your eyeballs and feeding them to your enemies if you don't believe in him.  And that goes on for about 5 pages... Anyways, Bear's right, we will do better by making ourselves look good than by making bin Laden look bad.  Take this into account, in Vietnam, we decided to firebomb the jungles, kill everyone who looked Asian, and basically make @$$es of ourselves.  You DO know what happened in that war, right? The reason for this is, because we never had the support of the people, they weren't willing to help us.  We never built roads, so they never told us where the enemy was.  We never helped them get out of the fuedal system, so they withheld whatever they knew.  We even took innocent civilians and slaughtered them just to meet quotas set of the amount of Vietcong that had to be killed.  Is it any wonder they didn't help us? In Afghanistan, we can't go in with the assumption that every Muslim in the country is out to get us, or they will be.  Killing bin Laden IS a goal, I agree with that, but it is a long term goal.  First, we need the help of the people, and, at the same time, it will deny him that support.  We need to build roads, so that the villagers won't spit on us.  We need to build up industry, so that they'll be willing to tell us,"yes, there is a terrorist hideout in those mountains."  These people may not have gone to Ivy League colleges, or even gone to school, but they're still the smartest people in the region, and by winning them to our side, we can save massive amounts of bloodshed on both sides.  After, and only after, we have won the hearts and minds of the Afghan people, can we begin to look for bin Laden.  If we don't, we will find ourselves overwhelmed with massive amounts of false information, massive amounts of suicidal extremist Islamic gunmen, and we will simply be shoved out of Afghanistan.  My idea of this is simple, build up the standard of living, build up the standard of education, build up the standard of the jobs in the nation, and let the people see that we really do want to help them.  Then, after a few years spent gaining their trust, ask them where to find bin Laden, and they will gladly tell us.  Ask them to overthrow the overbearing Taliban government, and they will gladly do it.  But, if we ran in now and asked them to do it, they would probably end up mooning us or something    If we take our time, and don't rush into anything, we will be far better off than if we rush in and try to shoot everything in sight. Well, that's my daily rant  Argon

True, but being at war doesn't mean you have to lose all your synapses    If we go in, take an area, one that's small enough for us to hold against Vietcong-like guerillas, and get those people's support before we move on, we will leave an area where the people are willing to fight to remain under our control, not to get our from under it.  If we can do that, it will cut down on casualties by the thousands, because we won't have to spend troops as riot police the way the English do in Northern Ireland, and we won't have to worry about being shot in the back while we patrol our own territory.  If we take it slow, we will save hundreds and thousands of American, Afghan, and whoever-the-h*ll-else-happens-to-be-in-the-area's lives.  And I have a slight feeling that they will appreciate that little fact  Argon

My appologies, American schools don't cover that much about the UK.  Also, last I heard, Northern Ireland was still under the control of British soldiers... Argon