Communications Network
Vast Empire  -  New Posts  -  Search  -  Statistics  -  Login 
 
ComNet > Neutral Messages > Archived Lounge > Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
 
 
 
Author
Topic:  Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
Serpent
ComNet n00b
 
Serpent
 
[VE-NAVY] Senior Crewman (SCRW)
 
Post Number:  16
Total Posts:  1214
Joined:  Jul 2011
Status:  Offline
  Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
July 23, 2011 1:12:07 AM    View the profile of Serpent 
Greetings folks, just thought I’d share some musings with you.  I am big fan of the Star Wars tabletop roleplay game, specifically the D20 Wizards of the Coast version.  As such, I was lured into playing Dungeons & Dragons by some friends (my fall to the dark side of the nerd was now complete).  First thing I learned was the D&D alignment system, and I couldn’t help but mentally apply it to Star Wars.  Doing so, things began to make a lot of sense.  See if any of you agree with me on this:

   
Photobucket





Okay, that’s the chart.  For those who don’t know, you cross-reference your character’s belief in good or evil, with their love of law and order or their love of freedom and independence.  If you are a Republic Senator who loves justice and the laws of democracy, and is determined to see those things help protect the people of the galaxy, you are Lawful Good.  If you are a brutal Sith Marauder who slaughters people for fun and cares not for any rules, you are Chaotic Evil.

Now, here is my point.  The system allows for characters to follow leaders or groups with ‘up to one step difference’.  So, I could be Neutral Good (not particularly for or against law and order, but still very moral in regards to helping others and not killing for fun), but I could still serve in a regime dedicated to Lawful Good.  I would focus on their ‘good’ morality and just have to stomach their adherence to rules and hierarchy.


My theory is:

Senator Palpatine was Neutral Evil.  He was out for himself, and had no real love of order.  He simply joined and subverted a Lawful group (the Republic) because it was the number one power in the galaxy.  If Hutt crime cartels ran all of known space (a Chaotic group, I would say) he would happily have joined them instead.

However, he needed order to make his rule secure, and created the Lawful Evil Galactic Empire (he is only ‘one step’ from this so it is easy for him to be part of).

This Empire attracted other Neutral Evil beings (opportunists like Prince Xizor), Lawful Evil beings (like Grand Moff Tarkin), and Lawful Neutral beings (Like Captain Pellaeon).

Palpatine dies, and people vie for his throne.  Eventually, Grand Admiral Thrawn comes along.  He is blatantly Lawful, but was he Evil?  I am not sure.  Certainly he executed people for failing, but he may have just been following the rules of the Empire (and not derived any sadistic pleasure from the act).  Certainly, he did not lay waste to vast civilian populations, and had no Imperial sense of racism or sexism (in the former case he was an alien himself, and in the second case he respected Mara Jade, a woman, and offered her a captaincy in the Empire).

Anyway, be he Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral, he dies, and years later Pellaeon becomes de facto leader of the Empire.  Pellaeon is certainly not evil, but he is not really good either (Did he slaughter civilians?  No.  Did he protest that other Imperials used weapons like the Death Star?  No).  He is Lawful Neutral and slowly the Empire itself moves ‘one step’ and becomes Lawful Neutral too.

On these terms, the Lawful Neutral Imperial Remnant finally signs a peace with the Lawful Good New Republic, because they are only ‘one step’ apart.

That is the canon timeline by alignment.  I would go further and suggest that the Vast Empire is also Lawful Neutral.  Thus some of our characters are Lawful Good, some are Lawful Neutral (such as my own Pherik Zail, who cares only for order and cares not if it comes with a smile or a threat), and some of us are Lawful Evil.  Some of our NPCs are simply Neutral (the cooks and cleaners don’t care for politics or morality, they just get paid by whoever is in power on their planet).


A little long, but that’s my idea.  What does everyone think?  What are your characters?  Which do you think Thrawn really was?  Or do you hate the D&D alignment system as overly simplistic and just pigeon-holing characters that are too complex to be easily explained by a three by three square grid?
JBO/SCRW Pherik “Serpent” Zail / ISD II Halcyon Warrior/TF: Aurek/2Flt/FC/VEN/VE [SoA]
[This message has been edited by Serpent (edited July 23, 2011 2:26:50 AM)]
Dunny
ComNet Initiate
 
Dunny
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  101
Total Posts:  438
Status:  Offline
  RE: Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
July 23, 2011 2:10:13 AM    View the profile of Dunny 
>Implying the New Republic is Lawful Good.

laughingtrolls.jpeg.
FM/PO2 Sam Jack "Dunny" Dunn/A-3/
S:82 "Nightshrike"/W:245 'Halcyon Warrior'
TF:A/Flt1/SFC/VEN/VE
[SoA][M1][NAR]
[1vM] [Scout][SfM]

Imperial Network Star Wars Image
Imperial Network Star Wars ImageImperial Network Star Wars ImageImperial Network Star Wars ImageImperial Network Star Wars Image
Trykon
ComNet Member
 
Trykon
 
[VE-DJO] Acolyte
[VE-NAVY] Warrant Officer 2nd Class (WO2)
 
Post Number:  773
Total Posts:  3784
Joined:  Feb 2011
Status:  Offline
  RE: Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
July 23, 2011 3:49:36 AM    View the profile of Trykon 
As someone who considers myself a writer more than a role-player, I find the D&D alignment system a bit simplistic, and detrimental to good storytelling if a writer adheres to it slavishly.  It's useful as a broad-strokes guide as you're thinking about a character and relationships, but once we get into particulars with specific, multi-dimensional people, it becomes more a hindrance to character development than anything else.  My two credits: life (and therefore, good fiction) can't be reliably modeled with nine boxes.

With that said: if you find value in it, awesome!  My way is not the only route to Imperial Center, as they say. 
Imperial Network Star Wars Image

SCAP/WO2 Wyl Trykon/CR90 Defiance/TF:B/2Flt/FC/VEN/VE
XNT/WO2 Wyl "Trick" Trykon/PLF Cappadocious/VENA/VEN/VE

[SoA][SoV][BWC][NSM][E][NAR]/(=*AE*=)(=*SAE*=)(=*TG*=)(=*SCFE*=)

TRN/AC Trykon/DJO/VEDJ
[This message has been edited by Trick (edited July 23, 2011 3:51:18 AM)]
Jegora
ComNet Expert
 
Jegora
 
[VE-ARMY] Captain
[VE-DJO] Dark Jedi Knight
[VE-ICS] Pirate Lord
[VE-NAVY] 2nd Lieutenant (2LT)
 
Post Number:  1854
Total Posts:  2175
Joined:  Oct 2007
Status:  Offline
  RE: Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
July 23, 2011 5:40:35 AM    View the profile of Jegora 
Not to mention, good and evil are matters of perspective.
Jegora Fal
Army Executive Officer
Knight of the Dark Jedi Order


AXO | CPT Jegora | VEA | VE
[RCoD] [IH] [EW1] [MRT] [BC] [CoZ] [CCA] [DCE] [BoT] [ESC09] [AS-3] (6.1) (3.1)
Jager
ComNet Member
 
Jager
 
[VE-ARMY] Gunnery Sergeant
[VE-DJO] Uninitiate
[VE-ICS] Privateer Captain
 
Post Number:  602
Total Posts:  630
Joined:  Apr 2008
Status:  Offline
  RE: Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
July 23, 2011 7:40:21 AM    View the profile of Jager 
I... I thought Palp was all about unifying the galaxy?
Scout/Heavy weapon specailist

http://www.vastempire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Jager_Luth
Gunnery Sergeant J. Luth/Echelon/STC Academy/Tadath/VEA/VE
Serpent
ComNet n00b
 
Serpent
 
[VE-NAVY] Senior Crewman (SCRW)
 
Post Number:  17
Total Posts:  1214
Joined:  Jul 2011
Status:  Offline
  RE: Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
July 23, 2011 7:53:31 AM    View the profile of Serpent 
Yeah, I kind of thought of that too.  But was he really?  I won't dispute that he fed Anakin a line about bringing peace once the Clone Wars were won, and in the expanded universe the word 'order' was like his political catchphrase.

It just seems like a line to me.  I mean, if he wanted order and peace, why did it seem like the Empire was programmed to self-destruct upon his death?  Also, he used ANY means to get/secure his power in the galaxy.  Whether that was law and order, or illegal groups like Black Sun, to a variety of spies and assassins and Force-knows what else.  I think Palpatine was a little too willing to break the law to impose his will on the galaxy.  Feel free to dispute me, but I don't think Palpatine really valued law and order except as a way to cover his own ass.
JBO/SCRW Pherik “Serpent” Zail / ISD II Halcyon Warrior/TF: Aurek/2Flt/FC/VEN/VE [SoA]
Dunny
ComNet Initiate
 
Dunny
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  102
Total Posts:  438
Status:  Offline
  RE: Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
July 23, 2011 10:10:44 AM    View the profile of Dunny 
Plus, we're mired in deontological morality here. I personally find the notion that right and wrong is fixed, depending entirely on the actions one makes REGARDLESS of the situations...well, I find it quaint.

So, the situation is this:

You have been raised for as long as you can remember in a religion, taught that many, many of your forefathers have lost their lives in a long-reaching war. Your religion, your very beliefs are outlawed and if you are found out, you'll be killed.

You're faced with the choice of renouncing your beliefs and essentially abandoning your duty to the people who raised and trained you - and to those who died to give you the power and tools that could free your people.

Or, you can live a lie all your life, looking over your shoulder in case you are killed for no other reason than that you were raised in a cult.

Or, you can fight back. You can use the power, the tools and the knowledge you've gained and bring down your sworn enemy - who masquerade as keepers of the peace whilst 'protecting' a corrupt government who doesn't even care for its people. If you succeed, you will finally be able to live free.

Which answer is good, which is netural, which is evil?

Here, let's complicate things by adding the knowledge available to Palpatine in Timothy Zahn's novel 'Outbound Flight'.

So now, you know that in about fifty years, a massive, extragalactic invading force that is IMMUNE to the abilities of both yourself and the current government's only fighting force, is on its way. This force fully intends to burn your worlds, convert or kill your people and dominate your galaxy and shape it in their own image.

The Republic as it stands, doesn't have a chance in hell. It has no army. It has no defences. The second option is no longer viable - you think the Vong will spare you when they take over? One way or another, you have to take action.

You can renounce your religion and try to organize the galaxy's defence without using your powers and abilities. Chances of success? Almost nil. Who would listen to an ex-Sith? Hell, there's still a chance the Jedi will kill you before you can even warn anyone. It causes no harm to anyone directly...but by not doing everything you can to stop it, do you not share in some responsibility for the deaths that result?

Or, you can throw convention out the window, and do whatever it takes to make sure the galaxy will be able to stand against this threat. Use your powers, your skills, your knowledge, bring the weak parts of the current establishment crashing down and make it strong. Sure, it'll cause a lot of hardship and pain in the short run, but is that worse than letting the galaxy burn?

Because let's face it. The Vong would not have lasted five days against the full might of the Galactic Empire at the height of its power. Yes, the Clone Wars happened and the Jedi were wiped out as a result, and a totalitarian regime was instituted...

...but read the NJO series. I don't think the Clone Wars were quite that bad. On the most part, the devastation was limited to the outer rim, between two forces CREATED FOR THE PURPOSE OF DYING.

So, tell me. If I was faced with this situation, and took the decisions that Palpatine did, where do I fall on the alignment pane? How do the needs of the many weigh against the sense of righteousness of one?
FM/PO2 Sam Jack "Dunny" Dunn/A-3/
S:82 "Nightshrike"/W:245 'Halcyon Warrior'
TF:A/Flt1/SFC/VEN/VE
[SoA][M1][NAR]
[1vM] [Scout][SfM]

Imperial Network Star Wars Image
Imperial Network Star Wars ImageImperial Network Star Wars ImageImperial Network Star Wars ImageImperial Network Star Wars Image
Serpent
ComNet n00b
 
Serpent
 
[VE-NAVY] Senior Crewman (SCRW)
 
Post Number:  18
Total Posts:  1214
Joined:  Jul 2011
Status:  Offline
  RE: Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
July 23, 2011 10:29:31 AM    View the profile of Serpent 
Excellent point Dunny, and that morality of Palpatine is what I love about Outbound Flight, and the New Jedi Order novels.  It gives Palpatine a motive.  Now recently the Darth Plagueis novel has been re-instated on the Star Wars novel release list, a book that promises to reveal a look at the "origins" of Palpatine.  I hope its good.

My issue is this: Those novels you and I clearly enjoy are Expanded Universe works.  The writers worked hard to draw the Jedi and Sith into a grey area.  The end result was some retcon on the motives of Palpatine, but most noticably the rise to power of Jacen Solo (one of my favorite EU characters).

Now, I don't want to ruin the plot of any of these fine books.  However, the result of this 'greying' of the Force was a massive backlash from angered fans, and Lucas himself.

"The Force is Light and Dark, Good and Bad," So said Lucas (or words to that effect, I admit its not a direct quote).  The greying was undone, a simple good/bad rule was thrown back on the EU, and now I live in fear as to what books like Darth Plagueis and the new Revan novel will hold.

Hence my original post.  Yes, 9 boxes to sum up the characters of Star Wars is too little.  However, recently, it seems that Star Wars fiction is being directed on high to put everyone in just 2 boxes!  Someone please tell me I am not alone in being scared.....

Quote:So, tell me. If I was faced with this situation, and took the decisions that Palpatine did, where do I fall on the alignment pane? How do the needs of the many weigh against the sense of righteousness of one?
(and in answer to your question Dunny, I personally do not know, however I am pretty sure that Lucas does.  The Star Wars movies seemed to indicate that the end does NOT justify the means.  That is why Jedi cannot get angry or use the dark side even for good goals.  You may regard it as simplistic, but I'm certain that was Lucas's intention.  I prefer a greyer morality for my sci-fi though)
JBO/SCRW Pherik “Serpent” Zail / ISD II Halcyon Warrior/TF: Aurek/2Flt/FC/VEN/VE [SoA]
Dunny
ComNet Initiate
 
Dunny
 
[VE-NAVY] Petty Officer 2nd Class (PO2)
 
Post Number:  103
Total Posts:  438
Status:  Offline
  RE: Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
July 23, 2011 10:39:08 AM    View the profile of Dunny 
Oh, you're not alone. I'm pursuing a major in Philosophy, and specializing in Ethics in particular, so the idea of a black-and-white notion of good and bad is something I find personally offensive. If that is indeed the path things are going to go down, I might have to stop buying the books. At least, the new ones >:3
FM/PO2 Sam Jack "Dunny" Dunn/A-3/
S:82 "Nightshrike"/W:245 'Halcyon Warrior'
TF:A/Flt1/SFC/VEN/VE
[SoA][M1][NAR]
[1vM] [Scout][SfM]

Imperial Network Star Wars Image
Imperial Network Star Wars ImageImperial Network Star Wars ImageImperial Network Star Wars ImageImperial Network Star Wars Image
Trykon
ComNet Member
 
Trykon
 
[VE-DJO] Acolyte
[VE-NAVY] Warrant Officer 2nd Class (WO2)
 
Post Number:  774
Total Posts:  3784
Joined:  Feb 2011
Status:  Offline
  RE: Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
July 23, 2011 2:37:41 PM    View the profile of Trykon 
I'll go ahead and weigh in again: for me, Lucas lost all credibility as the arbiter of what makes Star Wars great in 1999, when Episode I came out.  Sorry, prequel fans, but adding midi-chlorians, hopelessly muddling the personalities of existing characters (like Kenobi) and inserting new ones without any development (Amidala), and creating a huge conflict pitting droids against clones were NOT improvements to Star Wars.  I give the man all the credit he's due, as the creator of the franchise (thanks for that, George), but I also appreciate the contributions of everyone else who has improved upon the original idea.  That's why I've read a bunch of EU material, and that's why I participate in a literary rpg with other Star Wars fans!  The concept - a space-opera fantasy set "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" - is awesome, and as a storytelling setting it is ripe with possibilities, especially with socio-political and moral/ethical possibilities.  Why should we, who play/write in that setting, limit the number of possibilities we explore?  Why force things into nine boxes?

I know this is a controversial idea, especially in light of Lucas's oft-referenced desire for a stark moral/ethical dichotomy, but: I believe there can be are shades of grey, in real life and therefore in the best fictional universes.  Rebels/freedom fighters are also frequently criminals/terrorists.  Officials/lawmakers can be responsible for deaths on an unimaginable scale.  Extrapolating to fantasy: magic/supernatural power is not inherently good or evil, but may be used for nefarious and/or benevolent purposes.

I haven't really gotten into the whole "what makes evil evil" debate...  I'll leave that to Philosophy majors.    My point is more that regardless of what makes a person good or evil, his/her alignment with any particular faction in-story has no bearing on his/her morality.
Imperial Network Star Wars Image

SCAP/WO2 Wyl Trykon/CR90 Defiance/TF:B/2Flt/FC/VEN/VE
XNT/WO2 Wyl "Trick" Trykon/PLF Cappadocious/VENA/VEN/VE

[SoA][SoV][BWC][NSM][E][NAR]/(=*AE*=)(=*SAE*=)(=*TG*=)(=*SCFE*=)

TRN/AC Trykon/DJO/VEDJ
Corvin
ComNet Member
 
Corvin
 
[VE-ARMY] Senior Sergeant
[VE-DJO] Initiate
 
Post Number:  728
Total Posts:  818
Joined:  Jul 2009
Status:  Offline
  RE: Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
July 23, 2011 3:20:17 PM    View the profile of Corvin 
The Empire in generally is Lawful Neutral or Evil. Certainly, the Vast Empire is somewhere between those, with the odd case of Chaotic Evil or Lawful Good.
ETRP/SGT Corvin/4SQD/2PLT/1COM/1BAT/1RGT/Tadath/VEA/VE[ESC09][AoT][IH][HotC][RoM]
~BLACKJACK~
*Vehicle Pilot*
Read the bloody manual!
"Never believe a rumour of my demise. I have as many lives as a cat. Also as many teeth, as many claws, and the same cheery, cooperative disposition." Peter Wiggin, Xenocide
Imperial Network Star Wars Image
"The Committee has also voted to change the name of the position, simply because no one liked the fact that its accronym spelled out Noo. "
Trykon
ComNet Member
 
Trykon
 
[VE-DJO] Acolyte
[VE-NAVY] Warrant Officer 2nd Class (WO2)
 
Post Number:  791
Total Posts:  3784
Joined:  Feb 2011
Status:  Offline
  RE: Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
July 25, 2011 8:41:22 PM    View the profile of Trykon 
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/the-maze-of-moral-relativism/?hp

1,800 words on morality, and damned if I can find a conclusion in there...  Exhibit Q for why nine boxes seems too tidy.
Imperial Network Star Wars Image

SCAP/WO2 Wyl Trykon/CR90 Defiance/TF:B/2Flt/FC/VEN/VE
XNT/WO2 Wyl "Trick" Trykon/PLF Cappadocious/VENA/VEN/VE

[SoA][SoV][BWC][NSM][E][NAR]/(=*AE*=)(=*SAE*=)(=*TG*=)(=*SCFE*=)

TRN/AC Trykon/DJO/VEDJ
Serpent
ComNet n00b
 
Serpent
 
[VE-NAVY] Senior Crewman (SCRW)
 
Post Number:  21
Total Posts:  1214
Joined:  Jul 2011
Status:  Offline
  RE: Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality
July 25, 2011 10:01:48 PM    View the profile of Serpent 
Very interesting read, and I especially liked the questioning of moral relativism.  It does instantly prompt the question of relative to what?  Determining moralty relative to the community is obvious, but there are of course other measures.

Tricky stuff, and yes, a lot more complex than 9 boxes!
JBO/SCRW Pherik “Serpent” Zail / ISD II Halcyon Warrior/TF: Aurek/2Flt/FC/VEN/VE [SoA]
ComNet > Neutral Messages > Archived Lounge > Serpent’s Thoughts on Imperial Morality  |  New Posts    
 

All times are CST. The time now is 3:54:08 PM
Comnet Jump:

Current Online Members - 0  |  Guests - 70  |  Bots - 1
 
< Contact Us - The Vast Empire >
 
Powered by ComNet Version 7.2
Copyright © 1998-2024 The Imperial Network
 
This page was generated in 0.862 seconds.