That still doesn't account well for the things we've already done. I for one don't want to go through every post I've made and calculate in order to figure out how many points I have. Consider Atrasin, Will, or Shazam. It isn't feasible. My vote's no on any sort of point system.

That suggestion also kills any reason for the points system in the first place, Gunnay. If it's still up to the SC or whomever to decide when to promote people through their own judgement, the points don't matter at all. They become just an annoying chore that few will bother with. Why add a step and further slow down a process that's already stalling out too often? We need something more streamlined than a point system.

Points systems tend to be too inflexible in my opinion. Ties that Bind (a Nazgul story) is a good example of why. It was my first full mission, and got me a promotion to PO2 and to command of Three Flight. Points systems, because they put set amounts on our actions, tend to stunt rapid promotions like that even when they're well deserved.

-Drac

I had an proposal earlier that seems to have been overlooked and hasn't been mentioned since.

Why not just have at least 1 promotion per week. not including rewards for things such as passing tests, however if the test system gets revamped, then perhaps they could be included as well.

now think about this for a sec, there's 52 weeks in a year, assuming only 1 promotion per week, with 26 active members, that's only 2 promotions per person in a whole year. Imagine coming to meeting every week, knowing someone is going to get a promotion, wouldn't that be great? It will be up the SCs to recommend a person for promotion each week, and the WC or NHC will choose one of the two recommendations.

Ok. Will, taking your idea, what if we do it where its two promos per month? You pick two random weeks and choose a deserving member to get the promo for each of those weeks. Also, what about giving out an award each week to someone?

fyi: to start the points system, find your current rank....there is a point value. that is your starting point.

all posts before = no weight.  everything going forward = points

i never said that everyone is guaranteed to get promotions. and Hunter said specifically, deserving member, and i said assuming 26 active members. if someone does not deserve to get promoted, the number one factor in that is probably inactivity, I have not seen one single active member that doesn't deserve to be promoted at least once in a while, thus contradicts my proposition.

my idea is to promote the continuity in promotions and people moving upward rather than at a stall, not to pass out promotions just for the sake of promotions. I also never said anything about randomly picking someone. i specifically stated that it's up to the SC to recommend a person they believe deserve to be promoted each week.

About medals, those are supposed to be awarded to those that go above and beyond, although the opinion can vary on who and how far they went, so i don't think we should set a limit on it just yet.

here's the Capital Ship Service proposal i worked up...it goes w/my Academy proposal

enjoy...

OOC:

Vast Empire Capital Ship Service:

  Candidates go thru the normal Basic Training procedures as set by the Academy.

  Upon graduation, members will choose between the Starfighter Corps, and the Capital Ship Service.

  Members would choose a career path from the following choices:

          (Officer Ranks only)
•    Command  - Communications, Navigation, Tactics, and Strategy
•   
(Non-commissioned Officer Ranks only)
•    Engineering - Shipboard systems, Engines, and all hard assets of the ship
•    Security/Gunnery – Security, Policing/Safety, Marksmanship,  and Weapon maintenance
•    Flight Operations – Fighter support/repair, Deck Management, and Traffic Control

The members would follow a career path that would take them in and out of the Academy for promotion and educational purposes for each new assignment they choose.  Within each path the member would have to learn specific technical data for their given path and be tested for retention and demonstration. (To be developed later)

Members may choose to complete more than one career path.  If they choose to start a new career path they would have their current rank suspended and reduced (temporarily) to a rank more conducive to their new position.
(i.e.: a CWO Chief Engineer who chooses to learn a Flight Operations career path would be reduced to SCRW and inserted into the beginning ranks.  Rank would be restored as the member moves up the ladder in their new path w/o the need to re-enter the Academy)

The CSS would begin with 2-3 veteran officers who would be given command of a ship. (CR90 Corvette)  They would be formed into a Task force and a TF commander would be named from the group, as well as an XO.  The TF would then engage in missions as a unit.  Each member would write each ship En Toto.  [Crew: 1/ship]

From there the CSS would grow as warranted.  As each original commander is promoted to a new ship a new commander would be drawn from the ranks of the Starfighter Corps.

When the commanders reach the second level (Nebulon Frigates) then the full weight of the CSS would kick in.  There would be need for several positions per ship; XO, Chief Engineer, Chief of Security, and Chief of the Deck.  The individuals would write each mission from a SHIP only perspective, while the Commander would write from a Ship and TF perspective. [Crew: 5/ship]

Upon reaching the Third level (Vindicator Cruiser or Escort Carrier) the positions of Chief Navigator, Engineering XO, Security XO, and Deck XO would be added.  Writing perspectives would remain the same with the exception that the ship would act more independently than previous, and may or may not be included in a Task Force [Crew: 9/ship]

Upon reaching the Fourth level (Imperial I/II class Star Destroyer) the positions of Tactical Officer and Bridge officers, Engineers Mate and Engineering crew, Gunnery Mate and Security officers, Deck Shooter (Launch officer) and Deck crew.  [Crew: unlimited]

Crew and officers of higher level ships may be promoted to command or officer positions on other ships
(i.e.: the Chief Navigator on a Star Destroyer may be promoted to XO of a Cruiser, or the XO of an Escort Carrier may be promoted to Captain of Nebulon Cruiser)

All ship Captains would report to and be under the direct command of the Naval Commander in Chief and their subordinates.

Ships per Level:
Level 1- CR90 Corvette
Level 2- Nebulon B2 Frigate
Level 3- Vindicator-class Cruiser
              Escort Carrier
Level 4- Imperial I/II-class Star Destroyer

Some things I've mused on:

The discussion over ranks is mute at this point. Our current low numbers are going to require a certain degree of sacrifice from everyone, officers included.

Despite Will's calculations, I don't think we could sustain 1 promotion per week before the balance I mentioned gets so bad that it's silly. (remembering what Den said back on page 1). Also, despite not having been posting much, I have logged on every day and have been reading the forums. I honestly haven't seen much that deserves promotion.

There needs to be a reasonable gap between the positions. Flight Members shouldn't have equal or greater rank than Flight Leaders or XO's, who in turn shouldn't have equal or greater ranks than Squadron Leaders and Command Officers.

(The exception being when old officers returned, as has happened recently.)

As such there needs to be some Crewman had the moment, there needs to be some Petty Officers and say one Warrant Officer for the XO rank. I know this won't be popular, but promotions in the squadrons, if anything, need to be locked down for a bit whilst we concentrate on the more important things.

------------

Since it was brought up, I'll comment on the whole “praise in public, punish in private” thing.

It's hard to say whether it really works or not. A cynic would say it simply helps those in power stay in power because complaints can be dealt with individually and ignored. Also, as Driver says, it makes it seem like everything is fine, when everything really isn't.

People who know me well know that I can be quite out spoken sometimes. I was even willing to take a demotion because I knew that unless I spoke out on something, nothing was going to change. Luckily, the change came and my demotion was worth it... sort off lol. The point was though, it wouldn't have happened had I done it through PM's.

Saying that, sometimes its good to avoid humiliating people, especially the lower ranks, and in general we can't everyone causing a ruccus and speaking out over everything, as nothing would get done.

Personally, I think people who have earned it, such as Squadron leaders, should be able to speak out in public in a controlled fashion. It would also mean that lower ranks could voice their grievances to their SC's, who then act as the mouth piece and buffer for the lower ranks.

------------------------

I won't get into the whole EPC argument again, but there'd still be no point In having one now.

--------------------------

The VENA... the VENA is too big an issue to talk about in one go. To be honest, we could debate about different aspects of it until the cows come home, but at the end of the day its all the prerogative of the NTO.

Shaz, to be honest i'm surprised you've changed your tune. When I worked under you last I honestly didn't think you appreciated the practical realities of the academy (no offence), so it's interesting to see you talking about taking a new direction. (even if you do make the VENA sound like the Iphone App store :P)

Suffice to say, yes exams are rubbish, and we need to improve things for the entry level candidates. I could say more, but i've had this conversation with too many NTO's now, I'm getting tired :P

--------------------------------------

That's all I say for now. I'll comment on more as things come up, but i'm going to wait till the meeting before I launch into anything large scale.

Well I hate to say this, but tough. They can't all be Admirals.

Who cares what the Army do? They've got numbers, they can afford to have pomp and ceremony and promotions every week - we can't and it's an unfortunate fact.

However, if we concentrate on important things, such as activities to do outside of the squadrons that carry they're own reward system, it can help supplement the current situation until we get the numbers back and the promotions flowing again.

I refuse to nominate someone for a promotion just to keep the plebs happy (unless of course, they really deserve it). Kind of just slaps everyone who actually earned their rank in the face.

you're missing the point...

give them a reason to be here.

we cant afford to be the 'pure' service, WE NEED BODIES

I earned a positon. i didn't have the rank when i got Nazgul, and i still did fine.  let them earn the position, give them the ranks.

look, someday if we have army numbers, we can go back to being stingy...now we need to bribe, cajoll, and outright buy some members...

or just close up and fold this whole thing back into the amry.

...

Gonna have to side with Ron on this one, Gunnay. A big problem there is that writing command positions creditably takes a LOT of skill. You've got to balance character-specific stuff with tactical concerns and strategic concerns....and then you get to the overall storyline. Almost no one is capable of that without months of writing experience beforehand. It also destroys a lot of the frontlines, one-on-one feel of being part of a squadron.

I'm with Driver in regard to the promotions. I know each promotion I've earned has motivated me. Furthermore, I don't see much merit in Ibram's argument that regular promotions will create too many people at the higher NCO ranks. As of right now we have a spare handful of members anywhere in the Petty Officer ranks, and NO ONE in the Warrant Officer ranks. We've got a heck of a way to go before we tip the balance to where it's top heavy.

Rather than setting down any point system or requirement for promotions (because, to be perfectly honest with ourselves, we have to admit that there will be times during which no one will merit promotion), why not do as the real militaries do? They promote people based on experience, attitude, capability, and deeds...which, in name, is what we already do. It seems to me that everyone's looking at the current way and deciding that it's useless because promotions aren't happening. But didn't it work for the eight years leading up to this point? The system isn't broken...it's neglected. If you don't feed a horse, will you get performance out of it when you go for a ride? Of course not. But if you feed it, it'll carry you to your destination.

So let's feed the horse already, because we're beating the poor thing to death. What we need isn't a new system, but a new attitude in regard to the current one, and more latitude for promotion to come from SCs, etc.

Driver, I love that idea for the CSS. That's awesome. I would like to see more career paths, but those are easily developed.

-Drac

I would have to agree with Drac's last statement there.  I was thinkin about the points system today as well, and, like some of you have suggested, I think you could simplify it and make it useful, but a points system isn't going to really solve the problem, per se.  Instead, like Drac said, it's an attitude.  If our focus is to stay on top of promotions and make sure that people are being rewarded for their efforts: it's ganna happen, no doubts.  But, as I was starting to hint at earlier, some of this is going to require more defined roles and duties for our officers.  It's easy, for instance, for us to say "let's not allow this to happen again," but we need to make practice of it.  For instance, a bi-weekly conversation with the Wing Commander specifically aimed at ensuring that 1) promotions are happening in a timely manner, and  2) pilots are interested in squadron activities.  Usually what happens is that passing conversation is where these things are talked about, but those conversations are never consistent: find a time and place to make it happen.  The NHC would have to do the same thing regarding SCs/XOs and WCs/WXs.  I considered the points system, and maybe just a basic description of when and what qualifies someone for promotions: but that's a lot of work, and- it may not be necessary if we can just stay on top of it with a consistent system of check-ups.  We've got enough common-sense and instinct to know when it is folks deserve to be promoted.  If we can keep the "are we waiting too long?" in the back of our heads, I think we can be especially efficient.  The concept deserves a trial, at the very least.  If it's inefficient, we may have to accept the pill that is a points system, lol- or atleast a descriptive indicator or guideline.

Thanks for the comments on the academy stuff, btw- took a long time out to consider what the academy really means and what it does for us (during and after my time as NTO)- and I think we've been goin at it the wrong way.  If we can allow peoples' own interests to guide them to the materials, as opposed to mandating it for promotions or positions sake- why not?  Seems like the more natural option to me.  I'd actually, if at all possible, like to meld that with Atrasin's idea a bit.  I know you want to make tests for these things, but I wonder if we can't use a similar approach.  Maybe create a kind of basic training for ships so that members know what's expected of them (or maybe even the same BT, slightly modified to be friendly to both sections) and then allow exposure to the writing style to do the rest.  I understand that you also want to make these folks technically well-read so that they can produce higher-quality/better adapted posts, but that goal isn't so far off from that which we're trying to achieve with the materials for the fighter-corps.  So, again- why not make it incentive based: allow people's interests to lead them to the materials, as well as prodding from commanders.  That is, instead of incrementalizing positions/promotions via tests, where the goal is to simply pass the test and earn the rank, why not gain self-knowledge and become a stronger member through self-motivation. It's getting late, so some of this may be losing itself, lol, but I think we could take this attitude and run with it to a high level of success.

Again, only the NTO can really make these decisions.

I suggest we stop talking like we can actually do anything at the moment :P

There's not much for the NTO to do if he doesn't know what the membership wants, Ibram. We've got a lot of smart, dedicated people discussing this, and I'm sure that whatever conclusions we end up drawing will be something worth the consideration of the NTO.

-Drac

Ibram, don't you think you're blowing things way out of proportion with that last paragraph? You'v hit that point with every post you've made about this... Lay off a bit, man. Nobody here is concerned much about getting their own promotions- we all know we'll rank up eventually. It also shows in the fact that discussion has focused on systems for promoting rather than individual situations. Rocketman is the only one who's even voiced any sort of complaint about his rank, and his point is valid. He's been dedicated enough to deserve another stripe.

General guidelines are fine, but anything specific is just restrictive. It shouldn't take that much common sense to know when someone's done a good job- again, it's about our attitude. You noted that yourself when you mentioned the trickle-down of restriciveness. Let's work on that first, then implement set guidelines if we're still having problems. For that matter, attitudes are the one thing that the NTO doesn't have to decide for us. We can choose those on our own.

-Drac