About time this was decided.  Now on to the cage match of McCain and Obama.

Poor Hillary. Still, Obama's better than Bush 2.0

President Obama? Christ, what a nightmare. At least Bush already got me used to bending over for big government.

EDIT: You won't have to, Decem -- the "United States" will desert all of us first.

Bush got you bending over for "Big Government"? More like bending over for corporate bribery and puppet strings.

I agree that Obama isn't Mr. America, but he's the best option right now. And on top of my previous post... if a Republican takes office again, especially one so extremely conservative like McCain, I will denounce any intelligence America claims to have.

Ohh.. Yeah
Can't wait to see Obama in the whitehouse

It's about bloody time...

Not necessarily.

I think Obama has plenty of supporters out there that will vote for him on election day.

Besides, why would you want to vote someone into office that wants to stay in, and put more troops in Iraq?

Quote:Decembrist wrote,


I agree that Obama isn't Mr. America

That is actually a good thing. Bush was a Mr. America, look where he got you.

On the Iraq issue, i believe it's the world's new Northern Ireland. And Obama is right to want to talk. Look at Norhern Ireland. Thirty years of Armed struggle between Catholics and Protestants killing each other. Thirty years. And then they sit dow, talk for six months, and form a power sharing government, that's strong, been going for two and a half years, and shows signs of continuin. Americans need to leard to look for inspiration from other places instead of trying to sort out things from scratch.

Hah, you all seem to think there's little chance of McCain winning? If you add up all the racist americans - thats a LOT of votes

i agree, there might be some democrats who won't vote for obama because hillary said bad stuff about him and made some democrats only want hillary, so they might vote for mccain instead.

Quote:...dig up thousands of tons of dirt on Obama.

He doesn't have much to dig up. From my point of view, he is the only one that has really run a clean campaign or at least a campaign with minimal dirt on it. And by that I mean he hasn't taken any money from Lobbyists or large corporations. Most of his campaign money has come from the people donating what they can when they can. Sure his campaign has done some poo flinging, but very little. The way he runs his campaign says a lot about what kind of person he is.

Note: No quote this time, I'm too lazy to do all the splits. :P

Barack Obama:

is only a first-term Senator

      That such a bad thing? Young, means new ideas. McCain has old world thoughts. Not that thinking old is bad, but maintaining something that isn't working currently is.

is associated with Rev. Jeremiah Wright

      He handled that situation very well. But association doesn't always mean that one is influenced by it, which applies to the next point you made. For instance, I am associated with the south and go to school in the north. That doesn't mean that I am a bible thumper and a conservative.

is associated with Prof. William Ayers
threatened to invade Pakistan

      Threatened, but on rather good grounds. Seeing how Pakistan is technically harboring terrorists, which according to the "War on Terror" means that they are viable target. Doesn't mean that it is the correct thing to do, but legit logic.


supports nationalized health care

      Is that really a bad thing? I wouldn't think so. Sure we will have to pay more taxes in order to balance out the cost, but the question is will it take some burden off of the commercialized health care that everyone is currently paying for or will it be the same?

supports the cap and trade bill

      I don't see anything really wrong with wanting to help the environment. McCain supports it too. Looks like this point is rather moot. But the Gov't working to make companies lower their greenhouse gases is one of the only ways that anything will get done. With the ability to trade the license means that there is financial incentive to actually follow through with it.

holds dangerous positions on nuclear weapons

      So he doesn't feel that nuclear weapons are really a good way to go about military action. I can see that. With the fallout lasting for many years, destroying natural animal and plant life for the half-life of the fallout, and not to mention the fact that the US being a pseudo-father figure to the world (along with other nations) means that when little Billy sees daddy with a big gun he thinks that it is ok to have one too. Only, little Billy doesn't know how to work the safety. You can finish the metaphor on your own.

gave a nonsensical explanation for past trip to Pakistan

      So he went in college. It is interesting that he somehow was able to go to Pakistan when there was a ban on travel to Pakistan. Maybe he pulled political strings from people he knew. Or it is possible that he was going there to participate in the jihad, but that just doesn't seem like something he would do. I would say that in the same fashion that people go to Darfur to aid the genocide.

insists on distributing American wealth overseas

      Alright, I can say that this one is stupid. If it was a consortium of nations working to do this I would probably think better of it. Nobody has all the good ideas and he isn't perfect in anyway.

believes the fallacy of biofuel efficiency

      Good, he doubts something that many believe. I find that is something that  a leader needs. Doubt in something that hasn't been shown to be a massive change in all areas means that person is able to be more objective in a decision.

supports the naturalization of illegal aliens

      Are there stipulations to his support? Like are these illegal aliens actually helping the US in terms of the economy? And you know that if these people are marked as citizens that means that the businesses they work for are required to pay the minimum wage, which I am pretty sure that they are not happy about.

supports restrictions on gun possession rights

      What type of restrictions? A deeper background check prior to the purchase of a firearm? But the thing is how many gun related killings are done with a weapon the killer purchased and registered? Which I am pretty sure are low and those killings that are done with a stolen firearm, in my opinion, can be blamed upon the owner for having a lack of personal security on their weapons.

So although those points that you have made, although are good ones, can be looked at in a different way. Occam's Razor - all other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.


And my apologies for ranting, I just enjoy a good debate. :P

1. Arrogant, I wouldn't think so. But on the matter of lack of experience. Sure he is young, but not younger than a number of other presidents. But you know what? Having the ability to gain experience is great. That means that there aren't any previous, what I like to call, "Brainwashing Toxins" to influence or hinder ideas that could repair damages or create economic prosperity.

2. McCain is using his POW status in the fashion that makes him more suitable to take over the nation because he has military experience. Clinton was using her husband's experience in the White House to say that she was the better candidate for the White House. If you can find one politician in the past 50 years that didn't use some personal experience or something similar to get somewhere in politics then I would be willing to admit that is even relevant.

3. Once again, he used a link to progress in the political world. That is nothing new. So the Ayers is or was a radical back in the '60s and '70s. Is he still such a person? No, I can't say that he is. Using such a link means practically nothing. Look at the current Pope. He was a Hitler Youth. The most powerful religious figure in the world supported Hitler. Interesting in how he still became the pope.

4. A war with Pakistan isn't something that we need and Obama has made it clear that he understands that. He never said that he would immediately attack Pakistan. He said that: one he would discuss with radical nations without preconditions and two he would move the front to Pakistan should Musharraf not take the matters into his nation's hands and move the front back to Afghanistan. Interesting how he is moving to the areas prominently showing terrorist activities. As far as Saudi Arabia goes, attacking them would mean that there would be a war to end all wars because both the US and SA rely upon each other. So, it would be foolish to do something about their actions, which are mostly located within their sphere of influence.

5. Of course somebody has to pay. But guess what? Those that don't have the heath care currently and are drawing upon federal aid will get the health care and then they will have to pay for it because it is a portion of their taxes. The interesting thing is that you prefer to pay for those people to get what they need without any return and choose your health care. I, on the other hand, would rather pay and get something in return and not let some lazy person mooch off of the taxes I pay. But that is just me. Yeah, that's right. I don't want national health care because it is for the greater good. I want it because I am tired of paying for someone else's health care and more. There is a reason immigrants come here and that is because they can make a living. If someone is too damned lazy to work harder then they should leave. I know a number of people who are living off of welfare and you know something they complain so much on stuff that they don't get or they are treated differently and the Gov't should do something about it. Yet, they don't realize that they can. So, which would you rather have? A choosing beggar or just a beggar? Those are the choices.

6. Find a bill that isn't made to create economic hardship on anyone. Gas prices are going to keep going up because the petroleum companies already know that people will pay the price because they need it. Why do you think that Clinton got destroyed for her idea to remove the gas tax for three months? Oh yeah, we don't have to pay the 30 some odd cents to the government for fuel. But the oil companies will just adjust the price to make up the difference because they already know that people will pay the price before the tax removal.

7. This particular issue has been going on since the Cold War. Unfortunately, there is no answer and never will be. Basically, nuclear weapons are like tic tac toe. The only way to win, is not to play. But because everyone has already started to play, nobody is dumb enough to quit. That is a good move because everybody lies and nobody can be trusted. This topic is on the same level as "Does God Exist?"

8. Fair enough.

10. Alternative fuels will not happen until there isn't any more oil. Sure we can hybridize our vehicles and make them use less fossil fuels, but in the end we are still using them. The best alternative, in my opinion, is Hydrogen. But the problem with that is: what are the costs of attaining the amount that we need?

11. American Culture? That is such a load of bull crap. Why? Because American Culture would be nothing without the influence of all the other cultures in the world. American Culture isn't unique because of where we live, it is unique because of where everybody else lives. Sure, we have our own horrid dialect of the English language. We commercialize all holidays and make stupid ones up (Mother's Day, Father's Day, Buy Something For someone Else For No Reason Day [not a reference to a real holiday]).

12. I'll agree that preventing the sell of personal arms to civilians is a bad thing. Believe it or not, the crime rates in Europe are much higher than in the US. I personally think that is because of the fact that we can shoot back. Self-defense is a bitch to those attacking.

Just my two cents. Sorry to rehash some of these points.

Barack Obama:

is only a first-term Senator
- and had some time in a state house in a pretty large state composed of both very urban and very rural voters. Plus, time in DC doesn't mean much to most Americans

is associated with Rev. Jeremiah Wright
- and Billy Graham was an anti-Semite. NO president has ever been nailed for associating with him. And why does Wright get slammed when the Falwells and Robertsons of the world get a free pass? McCain has his own radical minister endorsements. And frankly, if I was a black man in my 60s I'd be just as pissed off as he is.

is associated with Prof. William Ayers
- and the RFS have a full psychological profile on McCain. Any other conspiracy theories you want to let out? Besides, I believe about all of us have, knowingly or not, lived near a drug dealer, child molestor, murderer or some other type of miscreant. Does that make YOU one of those? No. Same theory applies here.

threatened to invade Pakistan
- no, he would attack inside Pakistan without Musharraf's say-so. Which is not the same thing. Besides, remember "Bomb, bomb Iran"? Get over yourself.

supports nationalized health care
- absolutely a good thing

supports the cap and trade bill
- whatever happened to the conservative "let the markets decide" concept? This falls right in that.

holds dangerous positions on nuclear weapons
- being from Nevada, he's against putting nuclear waste on top of my water supply, which I'm for.

gave a nonsensical explanation for past trip to Pakistan
- and McCain doesn't know a Sunni from a Shi'a or an Iraqi from an Iranian. Next question?

insists on distributing American wealth overseas
- I don't see 1) how that differs from any other president in modern history (or have you not noticed that the Chinese are funding the Iraq war at a percentage?) and 2) depending on your angle on this, investing in growing economies is actually a *good* thing for America. Stable nations tend to not become military interventions.

believes the fallacy of biofuel efficiency
- the primary "fallacy" of biofuels is that we are using the wrong crop source.

supports the naturalization of illegal aliens
- so does McCain

supports restrictions on gun possession rights
- my psycho neighbors don't NEED assault weapons

You've got a lot of propaganda fed to you, and when you want to discuss actual items, instead of dittohead talking points, maybe I'll take you seriously.

Until then though, I am sure there are others who could make a better argument for McCain rather than just being against Obama. Remember, a lot of folks didn't vote for Kerry, they were just against Bush, and we remember who ended up winning THAT one.

1. Federal experience means something to me.

2. Most politicians weren't actually members of the radical churches that endorse them, let alone for twenty years.

3. I didn't accuse Obama of conspiring to do anything. I disapprove of his friendship with a terrorist. Living next to drug dealers has nothing to with anything.

4. As far as I'm concerned, sending military forces into a country without their consent is an invasion. I'm not familiar with "Bomb, Bomb Iran," but it sounds pretty stupid.

5. I disagree.

6. How do you interpret Lieberman-Warner to be supporting the the free market? I don't get that one.

7. Nuclear waste generally doesn't come from nuclear weapons. I never said a thing about his views on nuclear power production.

8. Did I ever say McCain was a great candidate, or even a good one?

9. 1) I approve of very few modern presidents and 2) Again, we disagree.

10. I wasn't aware any of the other crops were succeeding. Is sugarcane doing better?

11. McCain is also wrong on illegal immigration.

12. Who said anything about assault weapons? I'm made of meat, Fury, not straw. Kindly refrain from making so many assumptions.