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Topic:  Capital Ship Service Discussion
Hunter-Morrell
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  Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 4:37:43 PM    View the profile of Hunter-Morrell 
Re-routed to here. Continue on as before.
Warrant Officer Second Class Hunter Morrell
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Shazam
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 5:19:36 PM    View the profile of Shazam 
Me and Driver have spoken about this a little bit already, and the proposition and been put forward that, at the beginning atleast, there'll probably be about three ships (corvettes probably) headed by one higher-up each.  I think the manner in which new recruits, should we decide to start that early, are passed onto ships (will the roster alot more spaces for capitol ships and less for smaller ships? more experienced members for capitol ships and less for smaller?) needs to be further discussed.  Overall, though, I'm generally of the mind that it may not be overly wise to put new recruits on ships unless we can come up with some decent roles for them.  The gunner, position, for instance, I still think is of questionable integrity: how much will the recruit truly be able to do?  Will they have additional duties?  Because, if not, that's a lot of character development.  Even a role as a mechanic- to pull it off, it sounds to me like some pretty decent technical knowledge (or creativity) is going to be required.  I stress it, because if we hope for these roles to evolve as members become situated, I can see them being excited at first, then a bit confused and trapped, and initially frustrated and unable to post.  Seen it happen just like that before.

I'd almost go more with the idea, as Arturus kind of had it running, that experienced members be passed on to ships instead, fulfilling roles on the deck where most of the action tends to happen anyway.  This is still, to me, pretty unexplored, but makes seemingly more sense that having new recruits on board.  It's also closer to the star trek analogies, lol.
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Arturo
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 5:46:13 PM    View the profile of Arturo 
Why not have the non-commanders of said vessels be bridge crew members?  i.e. Helmsman, Comm, Chief of the Boat, Weapons, etc.
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Atrasin
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 6:20:54 PM    View the profile of Atrasin 
i challenge anyone here to show where, in Star Trek for example's sake, Scotty, Checkov, Sulu, or even Uhura didn't have SOMETHING to do. 

think of it as a challenge to work a whole new type of writing into your repetoire.  if you'll notice in my CSS proposal the larget the ship becomes, the larger the crew becomes.  the writing would be the same as a squadron w/several points of view on the same battle. cutting from scene to scene, much like ST.  the ship's commander would be a unifying force knitting them all together as they conduct the battle/mission.

fyi: in my proposal, Gunners are also Security, lots of options there.
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Vacuus Ordo, Nex  -Without Order, Death
All a man can betray is his conscience. - Joseph Conrad
We few, we happy few. We band of brothers. - Henry V
May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - General George S. Patton Jr.
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Atrasin
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 6:22:39 PM    View the profile of Atrasin 
for reference:

OOC:
Vast Empire Capital Ship Service:

  Candidates go thru the normal Basic Training procedures as set by the Academy.

  Upon graduation, members will choose between the Starfighter Corps, and the Capital Ship Service.

  Members would choose a career path from the following choices:

          (Officer Ranks only)
•    Command  - Communications, Navigation, Tactics, and Strategy
•   
(Non-commissioned Officer Ranks only)
•    Engineering - Shipboard systems, Engines, and all hard assets of the ship
•    Security/Gunnery – Security, Policing/Safety, Marksmanship,  and Weapon maintenance
•    Flight Operations – Fighter support/repair, Deck Management, and Traffic Control

The members would follow a career path that would take them in and out of the Academy for promotion and educational purposes for each new assignment they choose.  Within each path the member would have to learn specific technical data for their given path and be tested for retention and demonstration. (To be developed later)

Members may choose to complete more than one career path.  If they choose to start a new career path they would have their current rank suspended and reduced (temporarily) to a rank more conducive to their new position.
(i.e.: a CWO Chief Engineer who chooses to learn a Flight Operations career path would be reduced to SCRW and inserted into the beginning ranks.  Rank would be restored as the member moves up the ladder in their new path w/o the need to re-enter the Academy)

The CSS would begin with 2-3 veteran officers who would be given command of a ship. (CR90 Corvette)  They would be formed into a Task force and a TF commander would be named from the group, as well as an XO.  The TF would then engage in missions as a unit.  Each member would write each ship En Toto.  [Crew: 1/ship]

From there the CSS would grow as warranted.  As each original commander is promoted to a new ship a new commander would be drawn from the ranks of the Starfighter Corps.

When the commanders reach the second level (Nebulon Frigates) then the full weight of the CSS would kick in.  There would be need for several positions per ship; XO, Chief Engineer, Chief of Security, and Chief of the Deck.  The individuals would write each mission from a SHIP only perspective, while the Commander would write from a Ship and TF perspective. [Crew: 5/ship]

Upon reaching the Third level (Vindicator Cruiser or Escort Carrier) the positions of Chief Navigator, Engineering XO, Security XO, and Deck XO would be added.  Writing perspectives would remain the same with the exception that the ship would act more independently than previous, and may or may not be included in a Task Force [Crew: 9/ship]

Upon reaching the Fourth level (Imperial I/II class Star Destroyer) the positions of Tactical Officer and Bridge officers, Engineers Mate and Engineering crew, Gunnery Mate and Security officers, Deck Shooter (Launch officer) and Deck crew.  [Crew: unlimited]

Crew and officers of higher level ships may be promoted to command or officer positions on other ships
(i.e.: the Chief Navigator on a Star Destroyer may be promoted to XO of a Cruiser, or the XO of an Escort Carrier may be promoted to Captain of Nebulon Cruiser)

All ship Captains would report to and be under the direct command of the Naval Commander in Chief and their subordinates.

Ships per Level:
Level 1- CR90 Corvette
Level 2- Nebulon B2 Frigate
Level 3- Vindicator-class Cruiser
              Escort Carrier
Level 4- Imperial I/II-class Star Destroyer


please read...it's not long
WC|CO|LCM Geordi "Driver" Atrasin/Phoenix 1-1/CVT Taskmaster/1VENF/VEN/VE/[=A=][=^SA^=][=^ME^=][=*MA*=][=FOCE=][MC1]{BWC}[NSR:1]{SAS}{SWC}
Vacuus Ordo, Nex  -Without Order, Death
All a man can betray is his conscience. - Joseph Conrad
We few, we happy few. We band of brothers. - Henry V
May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - General George S. Patton Jr.
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Drac
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 6:29:07 PM    View the profile of Drac 
I'd go for putting only experienced members on ships. It'll keep that area of the Navy small for a while, which is to be desired while we're developing it. It will also ensure better activity and a higher level of writing that will help set the pace for ship-based operations.

One question: Will we require members to be either-or, or can a member fly a fighter and be ship crew if their activity is high enough to do both jobs? And would that require two characters, or would one doing both jobs be acceptable?

-Drac
XO/CPO Drac/Nazgul 3-9/Phoenix Wing/mSSD Atrus/1st Imperial Fleet/VEN/VE
(=*A*=)(=*SA*=) [SoA][MC:2][MC:1][NSR:H][NT:H]

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep in order to gain what he cannot lose.
Drac's VE Wiki Profile: http://www.vastempire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Drac
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Willtconq
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 7:51:06 PM    View the profile of Willtconq 
I'd say, realistically no. but for the sake of the experiment, we could try it provided that this does not hinder their activity level in their other duties.
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Atrasin
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 8:25:39 PM    View the profile of Atrasin 
my feeling would be only CSS. no Starfighters.

this would be to grow it w/veteran, focused members. if you were both a FL and a ship captain 1) realisticly, how many Aircraft Carrier captains do you hear of that routinely fly patrols? 2) something WOULD suffer, usually its the thing you've invested the least ammount of time in, the CSS.

so, yes, they would have to decide.
WC|CO|LCM Geordi "Driver" Atrasin/Phoenix 1-1/CVT Taskmaster/1VENF/VEN/VE/[=A=][=^SA^=][=^ME^=][=*MA*=][=FOCE=][MC1]{BWC}[NSR:1]{SAS}{SWC}
Vacuus Ordo, Nex  -Without Order, Death
All a man can betray is his conscience. - Joseph Conrad
We few, we happy few. We band of brothers. - Henry V
May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - General George S. Patton Jr.
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Gunnay
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 9:13:22 PM    View the profile of Gunnay 
Here's an idea I worked up. It would start with every member on the Atrus. From there they would progress up the ranks and each career has different positons open (much like the Army's specialties, but expanded). The idea behind this is that you don't want to hold people back from gaining rank and position because of a lack of members.

People will be able to take command positions because of use of NPCs that normally wouldnt be able to have the opportunity. Instead of (like my last proposal) letting everyone start in a command position, they can work their way up. By the tme they are a Warrant Officer if they have not been given the opportunity to take command of a flight of PCs they can be given one in a squadron with a PC Squadron Leader, another PC FL and the FMs made up of NPCs. (This would work with all the careers.) Of course, if they wish, they can remain in a squadron

(#a. Career Path -> #b. Crewman position -> #c. Petty Officer position -> #d. Warrant Officer position -> #e. Junior Officer position (to LCDR) -> #f. Senior Officer position (to COM) -> #g. Flag Officer position)

1a. Starfighter Corps (I will be using this to extend all my ideas, they ideas would extend to the other career paths as well.)
    1b. Flight Member (Straight out of Naval Academy, getting into the action)
    1c. Senior Flight Member (On being awarded the rank of PO2. Recognition of service and knowledge of position, capable of helping out new VENA graduates.)
    1d. Flight Leader (On being awarded the rank of WO2. Recognition of extensive service and knowledge of position. WO2s may choose to remain a SFM until a PC-command position is open or may take command of a Flight in a NPC squadron. If the latter option is selected, WO2 will have to create basic character information for his/her Flight. If at some point WO2 feels they are unable to handle this responsibility they may be transferred back to a PC squadron with no penalty.)
    1e. Squadron Leader (On being awarded the rank of ENS. Recognition of member's contribution to the VEN and encompassing of officer qualities. ENSs may choose to take command of a squadron (NPC or PC) or remain a FL. SFM and FM positions are reserved for returning members and non-officer ranks)
    1f. Wing Commander (On being awarded the rank of CDR. For superior service is given the opportunity of commanding a PC or NPC wing. CDR may choose to remain a squadron leader.)
    1g. High Command (On being awarded the rank of RADM. When NHC positions come open, a Starfighter Corps member may be awarded the rank of RADM and a position on the NHC.)

2a. Weapons Sytems and Tactics
    2b. Gunner
    2c. Senior Gunner
    2d. Gunnery Team Leader
    2e. Gunnery Section Leader [Fore, Aft, Port or Starboard section]
    2f. Ship Tactical Officer (coordinates movement of 1VIF)
    2g. High Command

3a. Ship Security (Protects the ship from internal and external threats.)
    3b. Security Officer
    3c. Senior Security Officer
    3d. Special Agent (Commands a team of SOs)
    3e. Special Agent in Charge (Extends from Ensign through Commodore)
    3f. High Command

VENA
Use VENA as a supplement for promotions. Promotions would be based on activity pending exam completion. Basic exam could cover the VEN and careers in general (pre1a-1a). Career Exam could cover the career in general (1a-1b). Advanced Career Exam could be a little more detailed about the career (1b-1c). Leadership Exam to cover basic leadership skills (1c-1d). Officer Exam + Advanced Career Exam would cover leadership and career information for officer promotion (1d-1e). Senior Officer and Flag Officer tests should not be necessary. If a person is not competent they should not have gotten that far in the first place.

While this does give a couple additional options to the Starfighter Corps, I think it would behoove the Navy to keep the options somewhat limited so as to not spread out the memberbase TOO much. Also, VENA can be used more as well. Create basic manuals (members could volunteer to do this, if no one does I'd be willing to, though it would be a project that would take some time) and tests. If someone wants to switch careers they can, but if they want to transfer to their equivalent position they have to pass all the tests to get there.

To sum up what I think this does:
1. More options
2. Allows for more position promotion
3. Allows for more rank promotions (via more positions)
4. Inexperienced members will not be put in command. The lowest rank to take command would be WO2. If a member shows they are extremely active and deserve a command position, they could get the rank on probationary status (say 1-3 months?).
5. Use VENA as a supplement for promotions. Use it to test general knowledge and is mainly a formality.
6. I had a six but I cant remember it.

fin

Sorry for the long post :-p
Senior Crewman Gunnay

FORMERLY:
Nazgul 3-2
Adjutant to the Training Officer
A:TO/FM/SCRW Gunnay/Nazgul 3-2/Wing I/mSSD Atrus/1VIF/VEN/VE (=*A*=)
[This message has been edited by Gunnay (edited November 9, 2009 9:52:57 PM)]
Drac
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 9:29:05 PM    View the profile of Drac 
No offense meant, Gunnay, but that system just destroys the sense of teamwork in the Navy and especially the squadrons. It spreads people out and makes the Navy appear to be more active through use of dozens of fillers- NPCs. I don't think anyone really wants to change much about the current starfighters setup- it lets us work closely together and build a sense of camraderie.

That sense of comraderie is also there in Driver's idea, through the coordination and teamwork the crew of the ships would need to maintain. Your version may well do the same, but it isn't as elegant. Driver's will grow and evolve along with the Navy, starting with a small investment of people and growing from there. There's always a logical progression of where it's going next. I just don't see that with yours.

-Drac
XO/CPO Drac/Nazgul 3-9/Phoenix Wing/mSSD Atrus/1st Imperial Fleet/VEN/VE
(=*A*=)(=*SA*=) [SoA][MC:2][MC:1][NSR:H][NT:H]

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep in order to gain what he cannot lose.
Drac's VE Wiki Profile: http://www.vastempire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Drac
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Gunnay
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 9:56:55 PM    View the profile of Gunnay 
You wouldnt have to post all the NPCs on the roster (thought it would be easier to access info that way). Also, people dealing with NPCs at the Flight and Squadron level will still be working with others. If an NPC squadron is opened, someone will take the squadron leader position and then 2 more people can take control of the NPC flights. It will be like a 3-person team inside of a wing instead of a 4-person team inside of a squadron. Basically the same dynamic, just expanded.

And for those that think its too much work to write for yourself PLUS 3 NPC characters: it's not. When you write in the current situation you do it all the time, having other people do certain actions within your post. This would be the same way, keep the focus on yourself and shout orders at your subordinates. You also get the ability to kill your guys here and there. Gives it a more realistic feel.

As for the elegant growth idea, I think this will do just that. People will work their way up through one of 3 careers all on the Atrus. In fact, the Atrus will become somewhat like its own wing. Instead of having squadron topics on stories, there will be career topics. Security would have their own and Weapons would as well. Each of those careers would be its own little squadron. It may spread it out a little bit, but instead of having 20 active members in 2 squadrons you may end up with 12 active in 2 squadrons, 4 in weapons and 4 in security.
Senior Crewman Gunnay

FORMERLY:
Nazgul 3-2
Adjutant to the Training Officer
A:TO/FM/SCRW Gunnay/Nazgul 3-2/Wing I/mSSD Atrus/1VIF/VEN/VE (=*A*=)
[This message has been edited by Gunnay (edited November 9, 2009 10:02:36 PM)]
Gunnay
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 10:30:05 PM    View the profile of Gunnay 
Sorry for posting after myself, but I want to make sure this gets read and doesnt get skipped over.

The other thing the VEN needs to look at is marketing its image. Offering "Career Paths" and Exams shows that there is a lot you can do here. People LOVE OPTIONS. Instead of a new recruit coming in and saying "oh, I'm going to write about flying a starfighter" they come in and say "hrm, I get to choose what I want to write about, what do I want to write about!?"

Giving new and old members alike the opportunity to choose what they want to do is, for all intents and purposes, marketing us as a place where YOU choose YOUR path. After all, that's what Star Wars is all about. You have a limitless universe of opportunities. While this isn't limitless, it gives options.

It might help to do a phased roll-out, maybe start with Weapons and Tactics and get some people in there and active. When there is a base of 5 or so solid members, open up Security.

The other thing is we need some new material to promote with. Members should also look at recuiting if possible. I've thought about heading over to, say, TFN and SW.com to post about the VE, but I thought Id wait until after these changes happen in the Navy (if any). TFN at least has a huge fan fiction community and could be a great resource for new members.
Senior Crewman Gunnay

FORMERLY:
Nazgul 3-2
Adjutant to the Training Officer
A:TO/FM/SCRW Gunnay/Nazgul 3-2/Wing I/mSSD Atrus/1VIF/VEN/VE (=*A*=)
Atrasin
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 10:36:06 PM    View the profile of Atrasin 
Gunnay,
i like some of your thoughts, others...not so much.
what i would LOVE to see is you coming back to ACTIVE STATUS.

not that we aren't reading and taking your thoughts to heart, but it would carry a tad more weight if you were back and mixing it up w/the rest of us.  then, i think, you'd see the plusses of working w/real LIVE squadronmates

Cheers
WC|CO|LCM Geordi "Driver" Atrasin/Phoenix 1-1/CVT Taskmaster/1VENF/VEN/VE/[=A=][=^SA^=][=^ME^=][=*MA*=][=FOCE=][MC1]{BWC}[NSR:1]{SAS}{SWC}
Vacuus Ordo, Nex  -Without Order, Death
All a man can betray is his conscience. - Joseph Conrad
We few, we happy few. We band of brothers. - Henry V
May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - General George S. Patton Jr.
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Gunnay
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 10:39:58 PM    View the profile of Gunnay 
Being a former member I DO know what that is like. :-p However, I will most likely be coming back, I'll know by Friday, just gotta make sure this RL situation is cooled down before I make any promises.
Senior Crewman Gunnay

FORMERLY:
Nazgul 3-2
Adjutant to the Training Officer
A:TO/FM/SCRW Gunnay/Nazgul 3-2/Wing I/mSSD Atrus/1VIF/VEN/VE (=*A*=)
Drac
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 11:05:07 PM    View the profile of Drac 
I still don't agree that there's any reason to change the current starfighter setup in favor of the proposed one...at least partially because you're not offering us any reasons to do so, but trying to further explain the details of the proposed system. What I want to see is reasons that your idea is better than the current system. How will it improve activity? attitude? membership numbers? writing?

I'm all for the recruitment ideas, but I can't see any need to change anything with the starfighters.

-Drac
XO/CPO Drac/Nazgul 3-9/Phoenix Wing/mSSD Atrus/1st Imperial Fleet/VEN/VE
(=*A*=)(=*SA*=) [SoA][MC:2][MC:1][NSR:H][NT:H]

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep in order to gain what he cannot lose.
Drac's VE Wiki Profile: http://www.vastempire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Drac
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Gunnay
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 11:09:01 PM    View the profile of Gunnay 
The whole point of my post was why we should change it. Giving recruits CHOICES in what theyre going to do gives them a little control. People like having control over what they do. Members arent going to magically appear, but it might keep some of those that sign up from disappearing right away.
Senior Crewman Gunnay

FORMERLY:
Nazgul 3-2
Adjutant to the Training Officer
A:TO/FM/SCRW Gunnay/Nazgul 3-2/Wing I/mSSD Atrus/1VIF/VEN/VE (=*A*=)
Drac
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 11:13:22 PM    View the profile of Drac 
You still aren't giving us REASONS. If you can't present any reasons the current system for starfighters isn't working and can't present any reasons your idea for starfighters is better, why should we listen? Things should not be changed for the sake of changing them.

I'm not even talking about the Security/Weapons/what have you. Just the starfighters. What makes your proposal worth supporting over the current system? Your proposal doesn't add any choices within the scope of the starfighter corps.

-Drac
XO/CPO Drac/Nazgul 3-9/Phoenix Wing/mSSD Atrus/1st Imperial Fleet/VEN/VE
(=*A*=)(=*SA*=) [SoA][MC:2][MC:1][NSR:H][NT:H]

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep in order to gain what he cannot lose.
Drac's VE Wiki Profile: http://www.vastempire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Drac
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[This message has been edited by Drac (edited November 9, 2009 11:14:26 PM)]
Gunnay
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 11:36:29 PM    View the profile of Gunnay 
The implication is that by only having the starfighter corps you arent giving people an option. They come in and they fly starfighters. Thats all they get to do. If they come in and see that they can choose between 3 different options, theyre more likely to be interested. The point isnt to add choices within the starfighter corps, its within the Navy.

I dont know how to make it any clearer then this: The REASON the starfighter corps isn't working is NOT because they arent given choices, but by giving people choices there is the possibility that their interest in what goes on here will grow.

Marketing 101: Giving choices or the illusion of choice garners interest. (this is why my proposal is worth considering)
Senior Crewman Gunnay

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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 9, 2009 11:38:40 PM    View the profile of Arturo 
...but the starfighter corps IS working, Gunnay...
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 10, 2009 12:08:32 AM    View the profile of Shazam 
Well, I do see what you're gettin at,Gunnay.  Actually- it's kinda smart, lol.  He's limiting the number per squadron and adding NPCs so that we can spread the numbers into the proposed CSS, with his added positions.  The theme, as he's said, being more options.  So, it's kind of a re-organization that, given our current numbers and history, would potentially be more effective at sustaining interest.  I can see that.  However, lol- these folks are making super valid points: the squadrons, as they currently are, have maintained high levels of interest when the system has worked efficiently in the past, and we're currently working to ensure that said efficiency is in place.  Once that stabilizes (and during), we can focus our efforts on precisely what you're talking about: interest.  That means stepping up our overall image (graphically, textually, etc) and marketing ourselves as you've suggested.  However, don't think we're not working on options:

The Skills/Proficiencies system is designed to do precisely what you've hinted at.  This might be interesting for you to hear as well, Drac?  I actually designed that system, initially, to expand into these 'options' as Gunnay has described, but they're actually even more exploratory then the above idea.  With skills like builder, maintenance, etc, they all start out simply enough: they're just skills.  But, as your experience grows in that particular area, you'd actually be able to transform it into a position and be given assignments based on your special skills.  Special teams could be put together for specific missions, etc.  I mean- that's a huge project and this is all speculation, but the 'options' are quite limitless.  So, lol- we're tryin.  The basic idea right now, however, is to stabilize the system we already have, making things run as they should, that way we can focus our efforts on areas that will make the Navy more interesting/fun.
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 10, 2009 12:53:44 AM    View the profile of Drac 
One thing I didn't mention about the Skills in the CPS, Shaz, is that more can be added at any time. It can grow as much as it needs to as people develop new ideas for skills and positions.

Gunnay: We don't seem to be having the same conversation here, bud. I acknowlege all those other options. I think they're great (though I do prefer Driver's system). The position I'm talking from is that I'm assuming those different career paths, or options as you call them, are going to happen. What I want to know is why this means anything has to change with the starfighters. As far as I'm concerned our current starfighter setup will work just as well within that framework of choices...just one of several career paths.

In fact, I think it works better. People can still get that close camraderie we currently enjoy most of the time and they still have options. If we can have the good parts of the current system AND the good parts of a new one, there's no reason to not use all of those good parts rather than just some of them.

I guess the shortest way I can say it is that I don't see our current system and the proposed one as mutually exclusive. There's no reason to throw out a system that's been being developed for nine years if it can work within the new one.

-Drac
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[This message has been edited by Drac (edited November 10, 2009 12:55:16 AM)]
[This message has been edited by Drac (edited November 10, 2009 12:55:42 AM)]
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 10, 2009 12:59:00 AM    View the profile of Shazam 
*Nods to Drac*

Dude- the work you guys have done is pretty damn impressive.  The numbers scare me a bit, but I'll get over it, lol.  And that's great- if more can be added: bam- perfect.
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 10, 2009 5:22:22 AM    View the profile of Ibram Tyrol 
Some food for thought, my FOCE back when I first became an officer. It's wider in scope than a simply capital ship program, however still needs some Ironing out.

Stormz helped me work on it, so he has the details on what needed working on I think.

Quote:Alternate Career Program - First Draft & Discussion

Here is my first draft for the Alternative Careers Program. I have chosen 7 'headings' or 'subjects' which will lead people down certain careers, and divided them into 4 main tiers, with some of the advancing along two additional tiers.

As people progress along the tiers, they're training gets more advanced and they are able to do different things. The names of each section of a career paths are purely provisional, and are meant to reflect the level of training. Also, pretty much every other piece of information here is provisional, as this is more of an exercise to see how it plays out then anything else.

The initial career paths I have chosen are:

Medical(Med) – Train to become a doctor and head up an entire medical wing on a ship or a starbase etc...

Mechanics(Mech) – learn about star fighter and small ship maintenance, with the eventual goal of being Deck Chief of a ships hangar

Gunnery(Gun) – learn about turrets and batteries, with the eventual aim of becoming head of an entire section of batteries.

Engineering(Eng) – preliminary about being part of a starship maintenance section, such as the engines or power cores, it could possibly expand into other areas too.

Advanced Flight Training(AFT) – Something that could go alongside with the VENA, mean't to enable pilots to fly other fighter types, and lead into Starfighter command training.

Logistics(Log) – learn about the logistics of a Navy, leads into commanding logistics vessels, or entire fleets or divisions.

Operations(Ops) – bit of a general term, it starts off with training to become a member of a bridge crew, and leads into the starship command areas.

-----------------------------------
Tiers

Entry Tier – This would be the first tier that candidates encounter, and this is where they chose their initial career path. Each of these modules are merely the preliminary training stages, and so mostly involve class and theory work.

Medical Training(Med)

Mechanics Training(Mech)

Basic Target & Signal Analysis Training(Gun)

Advanced Flight Training(AFT)

Basic Logistics Training(Log)

Basic Engineering(Eng)

Basic Operations(Ops)

Second Tier – this would be the second phase of training, which would cover advanced thoeries and practical elements.

Advanced Logistics(Log)

Advanced Engineering(Eng)

Advanced Operations(Ops)

Basic Starship Theory(Ops)

Advanced Target & Signal Analysis(Gun)

Advanced Medical Training(Med)

Advanced Mechanics(Mech)

Flight Operations: Support(AFT)

Flight Operations: Recon(AFT)

Flight Operations: Experimental(AFT)

Intermediate Tier – the first of the placement tiers, with training complete candidates would be sent to the actual career areas to do a low-ranked job. From here there is less learning, apart from 'on the spot' training, and more playing out roles and trying to advance characters.

Engineering – operator(Eng)

Mechanics – deck hand(Mech)

T&SA – Gunnery crew(Gun)

Medical – Orderly(Med)

Logistics – Ve Support Fleet Intern(Log)

Advanced Starship Theory(ops)

Starfigher Corps Special Division(AFT)

Advanced Tier – In this stage, candidates would have been 'promoted' to roles with higher levels of responsibilities, and as such would need to show advanced knowledge and skills.

Engineering - officer(Eng)

Mechanics – Deck Chief(Mech)

Gunnery – Gunnery Sergeant(Gun)

Medical – Officer (med)

Logistics – Support Vessels
            Repair Vessels
                  Supply Vessels (log)

Operations: Bridge Crew member(Ops)

Command Training(AFT)

High Tier – The first of the 'Command' tiers, these section is mainly about honing the candidates chosen area of study, and playinf out high level command roles, and large scale contextual situations. These tiers are mainly focused on allowing candidates to enter starship command positions.

Small Starship Command(Ops)

Logistics Command(Log)

Starfigher Command(AFT)

Fleet Theory & Tactics(Ops)

Bridge Officer/Ship XO(Ops)

Specialist Command(Eng, Med, Mech & Gun)

Command Tier –The final and ultimate tier, this is purely to do with fleet command and operations.

Large Starship command(ops)

Tactical Training  -  Flotilla Command(ops)

Notes

Below is a diagram that I have created that better illustrates the progression of these career paths.

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Please note as it is only a rough version, and that the higher tiers don't quite reflect the version due to size constraints

As you can see, the progression would be very simple. I haven't filled in all of the module names, but i've put a header over each column along with the tier names, so you can correlate each box with the list above.

Some other points to consider:

Most of these career paths will follow a simple linear progression, requiring candidates to do one tier before advancing to the next, and so on. However, when it comes to the ship command positions, the requirements will be more stringent, since a good captain is in theory knowledgeable in many areas.

This principle would probably kick in in the 'high'  & 'command' tiers, as everyone should be able to progress the first 4 in a linear fashion.

So, for example, in order to be able pass from advanced tier Operations to high tier Small Star ship command, you would need to not only have advanced tier operations + high tier operations, but also say and advanced tier pass in one other career path.

Same again for command tier modules, you would say need operations up to command tier, plus another high tier & separate advanced tier path. This would stop people getting to the starship command stage too quickly.

It also might be an idea to make the advanced star fighter course mandatory, as it goes hand in hand with the core squadrons and the VENA training. (for instance, the advanced tier 'Command Training' module could be a requirement for the SAE or MAE, for example. Also, if it's mandatory, it could be yet another requirement for the starship command modules.)

There are of course other career paths I haven't included, such as a Marine path, Technician, Naval Intelligence (as a pre-req for Reaper maybe?), R&D or starship construction...maybe other support or 'desk job' naval careers.

This isn't all of the information...but i've been working on it for a couple of hours so i think I may have forgotten some things. I'll add to it if i need to.

In the mean time, feedback and questions are welcome. If you don't understand anything, let me know.
"Determining the appropiate level of interference in somebody elses war is never a simple matter."

  - Special Circumstances

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[This message has been edited by Ibram Tyrol (edited November 10, 2009 5:24:18 AM)]
Gunnay
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 10, 2009 6:14:31 AM    View the profile of Gunnay 
Zomg Drac I get what you're saying now lol, I was like "why the heck isnt he getting this" haha.

And answer: it doesnt have to change. I was just giving another option rolling promotions and recognition into the mix. This way I feel like having a set rank/promotion equivalency gives milestones for people to achieve. People know what rank they need to achieve for a certain position as opposed to wondering if someone is going to quit or enough people are going to join for a position to come open.

I like it because it doesnt halt a single person from getting to their desired level based on their activity. I'm sure you've all had an idle FL at some point. Wouldn't it be great if you could just keep writing and know that in 6 months-year you could get a FL position regardless of whether or not more recruits come in or someone leaves?

I know the ideas may not be quite what you're thinking up, but at least we're getting the creative juices flowing (and showing how excited everyone is to get this rolling!!!)
Senior Crewman Gunnay

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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 10, 2009 6:53:44 AM    View the profile of Ibram Tyrol 
Lets look at the practicalities in terms of infastructure to all this for minute. From where I'm sitting, we only have a couple of options:

1/ We replace the current strucutre of the Navy entirely, and put everyone into ships. No more squadrons (aside from NPC's)

2/ We go half and half. Get rid of one of the active squadrons, and put them in ships. We then give recruits a choice and start filling up the ranks that way.

3/ We keep things as they are, and then anything to do with alternative careers becomes secondary and optional. It would need to be designed so that it doesn't take away focus from the squadron activities.

Now, #1 would be a huge change so I personally wouldn't recommend it because there are some people who do enjoy flying.

#2 would be an interesting option, as it would legtimise alternative careers without detracting from the pilots primary dutuies - because for some being in a ship will become a primary duty. We would need make sure there isn't an imbalance, as not everyone can be on a ship. Maybe make the newer members do rotations if nessecary? I don't know.

#3 Would probably be easier to implement, however it runs the risk of pilots jumping into any optional program full swing and ignoring their squadron duties, which cannot be allowed. Also, if option 3 is prefferable, It would be best to post-pone any such implentation until we get our numbers up, to lessen the impact such a system might have.

Before we can even begin to discuss the details of any program involving alternative careers, we first need to decide on the structoral emphasis behind any such change.
"Determining the appropiate level of interference in somebody elses war is never a simple matter."

  - Special Circumstances

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Viper Squadron
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We fly, you die

---------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------
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SC/ADJ:NXO/ENS Ibram Tyrol/Viper 1/mSSD Atrus/1W/1FL/VEN/{=*A*=}{=*SA*=}{=*ME*=}{=*MAE*=}{=*FOCE*=}/[NER]
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 10, 2009 8:03:16 AM    View the profile of Drac 
#4 Find 3-4 active people who want to transfer to ships and let them do so- you know, actually give the options. They'll form a nucleus we can build the ship career path around, while letting us work out the kinks. From there we can give every new member a choice as to which career path they want to do.

Things don't have to be so rigid, Ibram. That's what we're all trying to fix, in a way. When we have both we shouldn't force anyone to do one or the other. After thinking about it I also agree with Driver that they shouldn't be allowed to do both, except possibly in rare circumstances. If the ship career path doesn't seem to work out due to low numbers, we start recruiting heavily. That's an option we've always had that we've never exercised.

-Drac
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 10, 2009 8:40:00 AM    View the profile of Ibram Tyrol 
Drac, I know you mean well, but you're not really listening.

You so called number 4 does not change the reality that at some point we have to make a decision on the structoral emphasis of these changes. That's a fact that you can't argue away.

Yes, a small group of 4 or 5 people will be good for testing, so your counter-point has merit up to that point, but if it does work out, where do we go?

The only options that I can see are the ones I layed out. Those options are purely to do with infastructure, not details.

A single character can only join either the Army or the Navy, so if we went with went with option #2, it would make sense then that a single character can only join either the Starfighter Corps, or the Fleet. But then, if they wanted, a person could create an extra character, and do both, or simply transfer. Your arguments over rigidity do not apply here, because the alternatives are already in place.

With the numbers we have, Option #2 is also desireable because, yes, even though a squadron would close, there would still be the same amount of content driven. In purely numerical terms, there is little difference between two active squadron stories, and an active squadron and an active fleet story.
"Determining the appropiate level of interference in somebody elses war is never a simple matter."

  - Special Circumstances

Ensign Ibram Tyrol
Viper Squadron
Commanding Officer
We fly, you die

---------------------------------------
Adjunctant
Office of the Naval Executive Officer
---------------------------------------
VEN
SC/ADJ:NXO/ENS Ibram Tyrol/Viper 1/mSSD Atrus/1W/1FL/VEN/{=*A*=}{=*SA*=}{=*ME*=}{=*MAE*=}{=*FOCE*=}/[NER]
[This message has been edited by Ibram Tyrol (edited November 10, 2009 9:00:30 AM)]
Atrasin
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 10, 2009 9:05:14 AM    View the profile of Atrasin 
i do agree w/Ibram that #2 is the better option, but not at this point.

we have to:

A. test the CSS w/the small control group to see if it is viable option.
B. if it is a viable option, start small and continue the Starfighter Corps as is.
C. grow it incrementally, we need that core group of trailblazer ship commanders to go through the initial phases and re-learn writing w/in a more idependent group and to learn how to effectively write multiple NPC's.
Finally, when we have that initial group ready to pass to phase 2, and open up larger ships - so we can add the crews - we have a SECOND group of potential commanders ready to take over in the lower level ships.

it's got to be GROWN people, not drop En Toto in the laps of the membership.

*as an option...i'm willing to use the Taskmaster as a training ship to start the CSS. we could pick the iniatial 2-3. place them aboard the Taskmaster and run them thru the various positions.

what i'm also seeing is several people repeatedly championing one position, and not actually discussing and copromising...if this remains the case the NHC will look at ending this discussion and imposing our will.
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 10, 2009 11:27:31 AM    View the profile of Arturo 
Also, does CSS involve command-level members only at this point, or can a lowling like myself join up (not now, maybe in the second batch) as a deck hand or something?
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  RE: Capital Ship Service Discussion
November 10, 2009 11:30:21 AM    View the profile of Atrasin 
that is the current question. 

i believe it will begin w/a core of veterans to work out the kinks...then it will open to the general membership
WC|CO|LCM Geordi "Driver" Atrasin/Phoenix 1-1/CVT Taskmaster/1VENF/VEN/VE/[=A=][=^SA^=][=^ME^=][=*MA*=][=FOCE=][MC1]{BWC}[NSR:1]{SAS}{SWC}
Vacuus Ordo, Nex  -Without Order, Death
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May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - General George S. Patton Jr.
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