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Topic:  'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
Atrasin
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Atrasin
 
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  'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 21, 2010 4:17:44 PM    View the profile of Atrasin 
this is your chance to give some feedback as to the recently ended Wing Story: Smoke and Mirrors.

say whatever you like, but say it with love.
WC|CO|LCM Geordi "Driver" Atrasin/CVT Taskmaster/A-1/W:1"Phoenix"/mSSD Atrus/TF:A/1Flt /SFC/VEN/VE[=A=][=^SA^=][=^ME^=][=*MA*=][=FOCE=][MC1]{BWC}[NSR:1]{SAS}{SWC}
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Stewart-Power
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 21, 2010 8:39:31 PM    View the profile of Stewart-Power 
I have a question? Can I still finish up my post, as long as I don't add anything?
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Atrasin
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Atrasin
 
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 21, 2010 8:59:53 PM    View the profile of Atrasin 
S-P, i'll give you credit for it.

if you'd like to post it as a one off side note i'll lock it so no one else messes w/it
WC|CO|LCM Geordi "Driver" Atrasin/CVT Taskmaster/A-1/W:1"Phoenix"/mSSD Atrus/TF:A/1Flt /SFC/VEN/VE[=A=][=^SA^=][=^ME^=][=*MA*=][=FOCE=][MC1]{BWC}[NSR:1]{SAS}{SWC}
Vacuus Ordo, Nex  -Without Order, Death
All a man can betray is his conscience. - Joseph Conrad
We few, we happy few. We band of brothers. - Henry V
May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - General George S. Patton Jr.
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Rutian
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 21, 2010 9:23:56 PM    View the profile of Rutian 
Definitely could have been a little more definition to the story. It sorta became up to anyone willing to post to just throw whatever they felt like it out there. I understand that the freedom to kill etc. as we pleased was part of the point, but maybe a bit more "structure, routine, and discipline".
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Willtconq
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 21, 2010 10:10:14 PM    View the profile of Willtconq 
Yep... the story kind of started off bad due to miscommunication... and just went downhill from there... could've used a lot more planning.
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Atrasin
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Atrasin
 
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 21, 2010 10:22:56 PM    View the profile of Atrasin 
it was planned.
i just couldnt get any of you to understand it...even w/74 emails and countles hours on IRC

that, and some folks kept yipping about it being overly controlled
WC|CO|LCM Geordi "Driver" Atrasin/CVT Taskmaster/A-1/W:1"Phoenix"/mSSD Atrus/TF:A/1Flt /SFC/VEN/VE[=A=][=^SA^=][=^ME^=][=*MA*=][=FOCE=][MC1]{BWC}[NSR:1]{SAS}{SWC}
Vacuus Ordo, Nex  -Without Order, Death
All a man can betray is his conscience. - Joseph Conrad
We few, we happy few. We band of brothers. - Henry V
May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - General George S. Patton Jr.
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Romanflame
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 22, 2010 3:24:57 AM    View the profile of Romanflame 
Quote:i just couldnt get any of you to understand it

I hoped that I understood what was going on if not then I wish someone would have told me to change my posts.
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Ibram Tyrol
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 22, 2010 4:38:19 AM    View the profile of Ibram Tyrol 
IT's been a long while since we last did a story together, and I suspect barely a hamdful of us were there last time, so it's natural for us to have not have gotten used to the format as easily.

A lack of clear planning at the beginning by all parties led to some extra micro-managing during the story in order to compensate and try to give some structure.

Micro-managing isn't nessecarily a bad thing, as I used that command style myself and had no complaints, but it only really works if you lay out the rules before hand so that people don't have to keep changing their posts.

Regardless, it was still a good story, with some truly inspired efforts from all who participated - well done guys!
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Slasher
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 22, 2010 8:09:33 AM    View the profile of Slasher 
Overall the story was good, I think everyone who did post put a lot of effort into what they were doing, and for my part I believe that Nazgul and Viper have been laid to rest in a way which befits their service. However, I wonder, will anything come of this for those who performed well? In the Imperial Navy, I don't recall anyone ever getting promoted for failure.  Anyway, I want to congratulate those who gave the story their best, and as one of those who was there for Roku Tan, I believe that Atrasin and the Squadron commanders here have done an excellent job using those materials they had available.

That's my opinion,

R.I.P. Nazgul Squadron
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Summit
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 22, 2010 1:13:17 PM    View the profile of Summit 
The story were there, it was epic. Those the other thing that was there was general confusion. S&M (still... great title) falls prey to the same thing that all wing stories do, multiple groups having to coordinate a single story while each having separate jobs/parts. The only way that I have seen to solve the confusion would be to move slower, though that has the exact opposite effect that people want, as it makes it exactly that; slow.
S&M did a good job of keeping action going. It honestly had the elements of a good story; epic story, action, and it was open-ended (with the exception of the ending) whereas there was no real list telling you what exactly to do in each post.
Senior Crewman Saul "Summit" Aquila
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Shazam
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 22, 2010 2:20:55 PM    View the profile of Shazam 
I'm kind of on line with you folks: great effort, good story (creative elements), but could have used some more planning.  Of course, I was absent during that planning period, so I'm partially responsible for not getting my own input in, but still: you guys definetly pulled it off, and a great deal of credit goes to your officers for putting in the time.  Should be fairly obvious that these things are not so easy to plan sometimes, lol, so- props to you, Atrasin, and all of the other commanders who put their time into it.  As for our FMs and FLs: I think you'll get your just desserts

I think we're moving toward a good mixture between structure and freedom in writing, btw: just takes a little time to get that equation/feeling down.
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bjorkfrid
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 24, 2010 6:35:46 AM    View the profile of bjorkfrid 
S&M suffered from miscommunication and people not taking into account what had been posted in the story prior to their own post.

Despite that the squadron commanders and wing commander where able to patch over any discrepancies and allow the pilots to build upon their commander's posts.

It was an extremely open ended story with the unusual condition that we would lose badly and suffer a high death count. Although I think we might have struggled with the concept initially most pilots reflected this objective well in their post.

We could have done with better communication in the S&M discussion topic. This might have been the place to discuss mini-objectives on a squadron or even wing basis. I know, for myself, I tried to coordinate my wing through this way.

I also didn't think it was easy to understand where the big captial ships where in the battle and this probably caused some confusion in the writing. I think we did manage to get on top of the squadron numbers and kudos to Wilt and Slash for keeping track of those figures. Wilt suggestion of pointing out any deaths in your post was a suggestion that should be de-facto for all future missions.

The real positive for me that came out of S&M was the implication of NPC's. I think everyone concerned really rose to the challenge of taking into account NPC and indeed writing from their perspective. This definitely allowed the story to have a larger sense of scale. It should give us confidence when tackling large scale battle in the future.

The story might have benefited from agreed beat points. Not necessarily a firm structure but key beat points maybe lead by the SC and WC by a specific date. This would prevent the story from stagnating in anyway.

Now we have all reshuffled - are the next squadron stories coming up linked or indeed a wing story?

I have ideas but wanted to know what the Wing line was on this matter.

Cali
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Rutian
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 24, 2010 8:41:02 AM    View the profile of Rutian 
Taking into account what Cali said I'd like to add a few suggestions.
Quote:S&M suffered from miscommunication and people not taking into account what had been posted in the story prior to their own post.

All stories suffer from this in one way or another. It seems to be something that newer writers do more often than older, but everyone does it. I think a little more emphasis on reading is called for.
Quote:I also didn't think it was easy to understand where the big captial ships where in the battle and this probably caused some confusion in the writing.

In the future, when a large scale battle over a vast amount of space is used, some sort of map should be made in order to give people an idea of where everyone is. It doesn't have to be anything complicated; something thrown up in ten minutes using MS Paint would suffice.
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IG88719
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 24, 2010 11:41:25 AM    View the profile of IG88719 
I never got a chance to put my post on. I have one though.
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Willtconq
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 24, 2010 3:04:07 PM    View the profile of Willtconq 
Rutian wrote:
Quote:I also didn't think it was easy to understand where the big captial ships where in the battle and this probably caused some confusion in the writing.

In the future, when a large scale battle over a vast amount of space is used, some sort of map should be made in order to give people an idea of where everyone is. It doesn't have to be anything complicated; something thrown up in ten minutes using MS Paint would suffice.

We usually do. But this S&M story was planned and did go by so fast, that the map would change on a daily basis... which made it rather pointless and hard to keep up. On slower moving stories, such as squadron stories, we usually do use maps.
Shazam
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 24, 2010 5:35:51 PM    View the profile of Shazam 
Maybe something like this could help us be a bit more organized?  We could have someone update the grid every other day or so and each person could be responsible for editing the page to reflect their own changes?  Obviously, the type of map, symbols, parameters, etc could be changed per squadron, but this could be something we could work off of? 

http://www.vastempire.com/wiki/index.php?title=RSU_example
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Summit
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 28, 2010 12:49:34 AM    View the profile of Summit 
Like always, Shazam comes in with an Uber idea xD

I like it!
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Ibram Tyrol
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 28, 2010 1:05:53 PM    View the profile of Ibram Tyrol 
Pah... maps are for people with no imagination :P
"Determining the appropiate level of influence in somebody elses war is never a simple matter."
  - Special Circumstances

1st Lieutenant Ibram Tyrol

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Stewart-Power
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
February 28, 2010 8:12:18 PM    View the profile of Stewart-Power 
Or with a really bad one...
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Shazam
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
March 1, 2010 4:42:59 PM    View the profile of Shazam 
Thanks, Summit.  SCs/WC: I'd appreciate some feedback on that idea from you folks in particular.  You might not see this, so I might bring your attention to it on IRC?

(To the moderator: I've unlocked it for their feedback in particular.)
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Willtconq
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  RE: 'Smoke and Mirrors' Feedback
March 1, 2010 4:57:45 PM    View the profile of Willtconq 
I think's a fairly good idea, but the schematics can be improved on. But the real reason I like this is that it would serve really really good as pages for story archive.
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