This is for those of you who have recently decided that your Commanders aren't capable of continuing to do the jobs they have done very well for the past... however many years. I know that this is not restricted to the Army, either. I won't name any names at this point (because public humiliation shouldn't be the first port of call... maybe the second).

Fury, Japheth, Riel, Talon, Cosmic and company have been here even longer than I (that's more than 7 years for those of you who don't know or recall) and, unlike most of you children, actually have lives and responsibilities outside this place. They volunteer their time, passion and expertise to make this place enjoyable and I can guarantee you that without them, there would be no Vast Empire.

So, what I propose is this. Instead of being the dirty little cowards you have all begun to be of late, back stabbing, whining and warmongering, actually voice the concerns that you have about the command staff and structure. Don't bitch to each other behind closed doors, then act innocent when your accusations come out, or swear someone to secrecy about the speaker, but not what has been spoken. There are avenues for you to submit complaints and so on, where multiple people get to read and review and - if required - take action.

I know you don't like me, and so will not come to me, but your CO, PC, etc, can do that for you. Even if you wish to remain anonymous, I don't care. Just grow a damn backbone and stop trying to change things by gossip, anarchy and two faced approaches. You're much more likely to be removed from duty for attempting such coups than for appropriately voicing your concerns, suggestions and opinions.

Think about things for once, and stop bitching out the people who work their butts off to keep this place going at all. Asshats.

Incidentally, I might call you names, but I *will* listen to a well-thought out complaint.

I know my personal and professional life take me away from things often, and next year looks like another doozy, but seriously, how important to day-to-day operations am I?

I'm a sounding board with ComNet/website/roster access rights. Be real here. I think you can handle me being gone on a project for a week to ten days. It never seems to have killed the Corps before, and not with any previous Prefects either.

This February will be year 7 (maybe 8) of me being associated with the VE. When I first joined Majere was HHC, Anakin was head of the Army, and ThreeofFour was head of the Navy. Fury was a Platoon Commander, Tal was army XO, and Kad was (I believe) VE XO. Anyone with complaints should realize one thing...there wouldn't be a VE without them.

Act accordingly kiddies. Show some respect, and try to act beyond your age for once. I was one of you when I first joined, realized what a tool I was being, and changed for the better. They aren't your parents, and shouldn't have to lead you by the nose.

News Flash: The best way to get ahead and get noticed in this place is to take initiative. Try putting the daddy pants on and making a differences, rather than waiting for a carrot on a stick.

No, there aren't.  Because I rock.

In all seriousness, it was somewhat of a unique situation.  As far as I know, there really hasn't been a time where NHC members left, as DH and I both were, and then at a later time came back.  The only time I know of is TJ/PJ in the Navy, and I think he chose to start back at the bottom. 

I don't know Japheth's motives, personally, but if I had to guess, I'd say that he's worked with DH and I a lot before, knew what we were capable of, and decided that whatever we had to offer was what the Navy needed.  I offered to help him in whatever position he chose to put me, and this is where he chose.  I plan on making him regret that decision until the day he dies, but I do that for everyone that puts any sort of faith in me.

I must admit that my first reaction to this posting was anger, then confusion, and finally a sad realization.  You may know already that I was debating quitting the VE, but what you may not realize is that the reason is precisely because of attitudes like this.

There is no doubt in my head that you all work very hard, and are all very good at your jobs, but I believe that most of you are forgetting one critical element:  There are real people behind these avatars.

You have written a whole page about what great leaders you are, but have not even mentioned what your people think about you.  You have mentioned having to deal with high turnover.  Some of this is because of other things like school, real life, people thinking it is a game, but some percentage (probably bigger than you all realize) is because people join this game for fun, and find a lot of attacking and soap opera turmoil.

You mentioned people talking behind your backs, but I have seen many of the people in this very post talk behind others backs in the IRC, one even publicly discussing a punishment in the main channel without even bothering to set it to a private channel.

You mentioned that you have all been here for x amount of years, but never tried to stop someone from shitting on a new person because they have been here for so much longer than the newbie.  How can you expect this place to keep going strong, regardless of who built it, if you let things like that go? 

You all say that you want the VE to come to you with our complaints, yet you create an unapproachable persona that screams “Leave me alone or I will bite your head off!”

You call us “kids,” “subordinates,” and a few other words meant to show your superiority.  You compare the HC to a swarm of bees, but don’t even understand through that that you are unapproachable.

Is every issue that I have worth having to go through this kind of bullshit to correct?  And even worse is the fact that it won’t change.  You like standing on top of people.  It is ingrained in everything that you have said here.  Every word.  You are not addressing people, you are addressing children.  If we are adults, don’t we deserve an adult discussion?

You talk about things that were sent in an anonymous survey, and then make blanket threats and criticisms to the VE as a whole because you can’t take a complaint.  Let me say here, that criticisms are said out of care, even if they are shitty.  This entire post is a criticism on the VE for not bringing our concerns directly to you, but it is in response to people trying to tell you that you are unapproachable.  Think about it.

You call everyone asshats, cowards, backstabbers, and whatever else because they won’t come to you with their concerns.  I wouldn’t either.  Who wants to be called names and have it touted over their heads how much some jackass has done for a VE that is barely ever fun anymore.

You can’t have it both ways:  either you are an unapproachable ass who treats people like shit, in which case you shouldn’t be working over people, or you are a solid person who is approachable and fair, in which case you should do fine.

There is no doubt that you all do a great job at keeping up all of the details of VE, but I think that many of you are missing the most important aspect of your jobs, the reason it exists!  The VE population.  It doesn’t matter how many flashy new pages you make if you have run off all of the active people.

The very fact that you all made sure to mention up front how long you have been here is the precise reason that this is such an issue.  It seems to be everyone’s first priority to show how much work they put in, how great a leader they are, what they have done, but they don’t bother thinking of how they are coming across.  There is no “I” in team, and yes, this is an empire, but it still has teams.  I think that this organization is just like any other organization, team, or business, in that it is still made up of people.  If you treat those people bad and constantly put them down to pick yourselves up, the organization will suffer, if not fold.

So, for you to go through this every day treating people like they are subhuman or deserve less respect than the vets, or even push the idea that you are somehow better than anyone else because you have been here longer or because you have some rank makes no sense.  You are human just like the rest of us.  When you take this into consideration, in combination with the “approachable” personas many of you put on, it is no wonder that people are finding other ways to vent their issues.

Before you keep talking about how wonderful your leadership is, remember that you are leading people, not machines.  We have feelings, and opinions.  We work hard for you, and ourselves, but we cannot help but form opinions about the people we meet.  If you need a lesson in being effective AND approachable, look at Cosmic, Rizzit, Kadann, and a few others.  If I ever had an issue with any of them, which I wouldn’t because they give me basic human respect, I feel confident that I could approach them and that we could come to a solution. 

There you have it, straight up front and to the point.  Stop treating people like they are shit on your heels, and they will respond a bit better.

Now, I was actually going to stay until I saw this forum post, but I see that the shit in VE will never change so long as you keep these attitudes.  Because I know how hard it is to respect the power of a position over people, and because I know how hard it is to change your personality, especially when you think of it as harmless fun, I am formally resigning from VE Today, and the STC as of now.  I have to fulfill a promise to Cosmic, and then I will be gone from here entirely.

For some of you that may be good news, and for others it may not.  I hope that you can all see now why I had such a time deciding whether to stay or not.  I love VE, but this kind of shit is why I can’t stand it.  Have fun, and when you get over being pissed at me, think about what I have said.  People need to be treated with respect.  You should treat the janitor the same as the CEO.  Thanks for the good times.

It's the pointless drama like this that made me hesitant to come back to the Vast Empire in the first place.

And if anyone wants to know why I was "inactive," for so long, why don't you ask me about in person instead of assuming I've just shown up "out of the blue." Maybe there's a reason for it. Maybe something like serving in the United States Army.

I am extremely grateful to Japheth for showing faith in me. I acknowledge that several members might be upset by this, but if they have a problem with it, then I'd rather hear about in person rather than see a comment on IRC or on the ComNet. That's inane and childish; I don't care who you are.

Many of you don't know me, and that's cool. If you'd actually take the time to talk to me, maybe you'll learn that not only am I a really nice, level-headed guy, I've always been one of the more approachable members of any of the leadership around here (besides maybe Shazam).

Or, maybe you'll think I'm an asshole.

Here's the whole point: if you let someone ELSE make you quit the VE, then you re-examine not only what "fun" is to you, but your entire life. If you're letting other people's reactions determine such a large part of what you feel or what you do, then maybe you need to do a little soul searching. I for one never cared too much what the higher ups thought about me, because I knew if I did a good job, that eventually I'd be rewarded. And guess what? Even during the times when I wasn't being acknowledged for my efforts, I was still having fun. That's what this all about, people.

I was about to add something similar to that in my post, Alan. Please remember that every member of the VEHC, AHC, and NHC is a full-fledged adult, even our little baby Cosmic. Like you, we all lead extremely busy lives. Me personally, I work between 50-60 hours a week at two different jobs. But I chose to come back to the VE now that I have some free time not only because I missed being here, but because I felt like I could contribute in a positive way. A lot of you don't realize how much work the HC does behind the scenes around here, but it's almost like a second (or third, or fourth) job.

So even if you hate us all, try to show a little respect and a little appreciaton for all of the time and effort we as working adults put into this organization - ESPECIALLY Kadann, Fury, and Japheth.

And in turn, I hope that the HC will show each of you that deserve it respect and recognition in turn.

*salutes*

Quote:You can’t have it both ways:  either you are an unapproachable ass who treats people like shit, in which case you shouldn’t be working over people, or you are a solid person who is approachable and fair, in which case you should do fine.

This IS the definition of the pot calling the kettle black. My first knowledge of you being a member was an angry screed on how this club sucks and everything about it needs wiped away. Thanks for giving us such a chance.

If you are looking for a case in point in how NOT to propose real solutions to real problems, start here.

I know you are not a fan, but didn't we already work past this? I thought we had. More the fool me.

Smug atttitude aside, you have made proposals worth looking at, but the presentation leaves oh so much to be desired.  Like I said, I'll listen and discuss with other folks, but holy crap can you keep the bile down long enough to realize that there are many, many opinions on how this club should be and that your's may not be the one chosen?

Seriously, I'm not looking for any attaboys here, but how many of you have come to Cos, Rizzit, me, Merr, Tal, Heth, Riel, Kad, whoever with an idea and have seen it come into fruition in at least a couple weeks?  And if it hasn't, at least know we've discussed the emails/messages/discussions amongst ourselves.

Actually, don't answer, but if you've ever seen even the slightest idea of your's happen, just nod right now and realize that people *do* listen and that we're not all trying to cram a concept down your throat without any outside input.

If nothing else, I'd say the discussions we had over the weekend about the Army HSC would be a great place to start, or basically anything involving the Academy since Cosmic is always tweaking that given . Or hell, try the wiki. That's produced all kinds of good ideas. I'm not taking any credit for that. I'm not trying to get in the way of it. I'm not even saying I was all for any or all of it right off the bat, but I am often convinced otherwise.

And there are times where some ideas have a bad track record and we flinch from it due to prior experience. That may be unfair to those coming at it with good intent, but that's something we can all discuss and work on.

Basically, find a niche. Heck, *make* one. This club is here for people to generally find some concensus and have fun with it. It's a big ol' sandbox and we all get to play in it. You just have to realize that you've got to share the toys.

The big picture here is that I want to make sure that focusing on those yelling the most vociferously is not taking away from the rest of you. I'm guilty of that and if this is indeed what is happening, let us know.

It is the holiday season and I'd generally like to feel good about what is going on here and in RL.

Yes: 

This post is made out of frustration.

No I won't argue.

Fury:

Quote:Like I said, I'll listen and discuss with other folks, but holy crap can you keep the bile down long enough to realize that there are many, many opinions on how this club should be and that your's may not be the one chosen?

I never said that my opinion was the right one.  Think I am pretentious or overly eager?  It is only because I care.

Quote:I know you are not a fan, but didn't we already work past this? I thought we had. More the fool me.

We had worked past this, I thought as well, but you never changed the issue that the entire "angry screed" was about in the first place.

It had nothing to do with the club sucking or everything needing to be wiped away, and everything to do with how you in particular come off to people and why you guys couldn't seem to get help with the things that I thought you needed help with (which, in my opinion, is attitudes like this forum represents).  Again, what I think doesn't matter, but I still have my opinions.  More the fool me for having thought you may change.

Quote:Smug atttitude aside, you have made proposals worth looking at, but the presentation leaves oh so much to be desired.

I admit that I am not the best at making some grand presentation of a new idea, but at least I tried.  You keep saying how we can come to you with our ideas and criticisms, but they don't work do they?  Part of the  is because you don't bother to listen.  How many things have I submitted to you and never heard another word about?

If you had a problem with my ideas, you should have told me that they sucked, why they sucked, and what you suggested so that we could come to a better solution, or you should have said"  Thanks, but this will never work."  Instead I work my ass off on a new idea that may solve some perceived issue (perceived by me as I know how my opinion is taken) and I never hear another word.

All of that aside, I want you to know that I personally think that you do a great job as prefect.  You work very hard to make sure that things go smoothly.  My one and only issue with you is that even when you are being nice there is an assish undertone to your words, and if we want to say something to you and don't start it with a compliment, you either attack, or worse, ignore us.  Glad to see that I am the hypocritical pompous self righteous one.

Merrick:

Quote:a) I didn't mention anything about being great leaders. The times are as a reference for how much we care about the place.

The great leaders was how I felt after reading the three or so posts that seemed to continually give kudos to the HC.  You guys do great, I think, except for this one thing.  I don't even know you very well, but everytime I see your name mentioned it seems that someone is waiting for you to pop in and bawl them out.

Quote:b) This has only a little to do with the attack on Fury (though it was horribly unfair), more to do with a widely circulated personal attack on other high ranking members.

I thought that the attack on Fury could have been stated a bit better, or at least to him, but I didn't make it.  As you can see I keep my issues up front.  Fury may have shown you my "angry screed" where I did just what you are doing now because people were talking behind my back and was attacked by many, many people, including Fury himself, for it.  This type of stuff doesn't work too well.  I learned that my first month here.

Quote:c) I said I KNOW you hate me, so go to your direct superior. That is meant to be the way its done anyway. Most of the higher ups are at least on speaking terms with me - those that care to even TRY, which you haven't.

Yes, people should go to their superiors, but why should they hate you?  Why do you feel it necessary to even put off that attitude in the first place?  It isn't you against the world here.  You are supposed to be nurturing a society.  And I am coming to you with an issue right here.  You can't expect them all to be cheery.  But I am glad that everypne can see how you react.

Quote:d) Most of you are kids. I'm one of the younger HC members in my mid twenties. Sorry if the truth hurts.

Most may be kids, but not everyone is.  I am 28 years old.  I have a son, a wife, and I bust my ass, busted my ass, to make time to come here and participate.  But most of these kids you are talking about are 17, 17, 20.  These are not kindergarteners who have to be walked accross the street.  They see enough drama and bs in high school, but they are fully capable of functioning in a working environment.  Perhaps they aren't as mature as some other adults, but they are mature enough for this society.  Constantly talking to them as if they are retarded or somehow inhibited in life will never make them better.  If you have a society that needs to be talked to like that, you can't expect great things out of them, in which case you should understand that we will never change either, and so posts like this shouldn't exist.  Sorry. The truth hurts.

Quote:e) I'm surprised if anyone read your post in full. You come across more and more self righteous every time I see a post from you, and I'm not the only one who holds such an opinion. (Note, opinion, no one HAS to agree.)

Funny.  No one ever told me that my posts are more and more sefl righteous every time.  Been talking behind my back?

I don't personally care if anyone read my post in full.  It is only for those of you who instist on proving your dominance by stepping on people.  If I could have emailed it and felt confident that I would have said it to all of the right people, I would have.

Quote:f) No one mentioned shiny new pages, etc etc. We are talking about the Community Relations side of things here. Keep up.

This is again, what I am talking about.  Your smart assed tone is stupid.  Fancy new pages is a metaphor for whatever it is that youu do.  Do you seriously think that I would imply that all you do is build webpages?  Come on.

OOC:

Japeth:  I barely even know you, but I must admit that you are the least person who is in this post that I am talking to.  The few things I have see n from you seem to be well intentioned and nicely stated.  I just used your metaphor to prove a point.  Sorry if it drug you into this.

So there you have it.  I will not argue any more in this thread any more, but please post here if you need any more clarification.  Say whatever you want.  I hope you understand what I am TRYING to say, even if it isn't put in the best of ways.  I think that you all do a great job in your positions.  I just don't like the way that you treat people.  Not all of you come off like this so take it on a case by case.

My pompous ass is out.

Look, if you want to leave, then leave. I don't feel anyone is pushing you out but at this point all you are trying to do is create trouble.

You have slandered enough higher ups in recent days than I care to put up with myself. Your SL is trying to stick up for you but you are making it very hard for him to do so. I don't hold him responsible for your words and actions but if I were him I'd be a little dumbfounded as to why you are making things so damned difficult for him and everyone around you.

The reactions you receive actually ARE a reflection on your presentation and perspective, both of which are very, very poor. Yes, you came it haughty. It created waves. Things calmed down from there. Now you want to brand everyone you don't like some form of obstructionist. Take a moment to realize why. As I've stated, you are not the only one contributing ideas. Imagine how those others who do get their proposals achieved and take a note.

It isn't the message, it is the messenger.

What are you asking for is a popularity contest. And yes, you have said enough small things to make this about you almost more than it is some level of perceived abuse.

In short, you are at this point not trying to make things better. You are more interested in being right at the expense of other people's enjoyment of this club.

Have I been a wiseass at times? Sure, everyone has their moments. I don't revel in them, and I sure the hell don't CONSTANTLY FRIGGING BLARE IT IN NEON WHEN OTHER PEOPLE HAVE A BAD DAY!

You have a situation that is utterly black and white. No one of us you've chosen to point a spotlight on CAN do right for you at this point. You've set yourself above your squad leader and those between him and me and the only thing that can suffer is the Corps at a whole.

So yeah, we'll keep taking notes and listening. But I'm not going to turn this into some personal attack spree just to salve your oversized ego. I've got enough problems dealing with mine.

Hey, Bruce Banner, since when do you give the orders around here? "Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry." TV Hulk reference for those of you who didn't get it.

Seriously?

I advised you to quit going down this path and you can't stop yourself.

Frankly, these sound a lot like threats at this stage. And that, as mentioned previously, do little to engender support for your ideas.

Yes, I have been fairly open about any failings I may or may not have. In case, you haven't noticed, people do tend to screw up. It is called human nature. How they handle it is a whole different issue.

In addition, YOU made a public spectacle of yourself on a division storynet and the situation was brought up to me as a public issue. You did not send a PM about stopping a campaign. You posted a dead stop message that confused and pissed off people. I make no apologies for anything I did in that incident. Did I make light of it? Yeah, you bet. It was an annoying way to start a morning and I figured I'd reward the first one who came to me with it. YOU screwed up. I assigned a punishment. Life was to move on. You don't feel that way, but you didn't have to wake up and clean up your mess. I DID. And I shouldn't have to have dealt with it at all.

And sure, people care. It's THEIR club, they should care. So quit pretending to save everyone from "the violence inherent in the system."  Your messiah complex is getting tiresome.

Fury wrote:  Your messiah complex is getting tiresome.

Heh, read this and couldn't help but laugh. Jesus complex, lol

Hmm.

First we have no sense of humour, then I'm not permitted to make a joke. Nice.

/me frowns

Can't we keep the harsh comments to ourselves, people?

Seems like you want to incite another outburst.

Stop beating the dead horse and just STOP POSTING ON THIS BLOODY TOPIC.

Sheesh.

I'll second that.