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Topic:  Iraq then Iran
Jennabelle
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  Iraq then Iran
May 31, 2006 4:50:51 AM    View the profile of Jennabelle 
Why? I don't understand why Iran? I mean, Iraq was good enough, I mean there was Saddam, but why Iran? Is it to capture Al Queda or something? I don't get it, I'm really confused. Can anyone help me here?
 
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Jakireth
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
May 31, 2006 6:15:25 AM    View the profile of Jakireth 
Sweet Jesus...

No, Jennabelle, it is highly unlikely that Iran is harboring terrorists organizations. Iran's president has in fact started to embrace the resource of nuclear technology, and our collective nation against a power that allows others to prosper decided that a bad idea. So, it has come to the point where if Iran backs off uranium enrichment, they are rewarded. If denied, they're sanctioned.

And... Bad stuff will eventually happen.
 
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Arturus
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
May 31, 2006 8:19:49 AM    View the profile of Arturus 
Wrong Jakireth.  Iran is most definitely harbouring terrorist organizations (something Iraq was not doing).

Nw on the nuclear front, this is a very interesting situation.  The main target of any nuclear weapons would be Israel (Iran does not have the missile capability that the US and Russia have).  However, I highly doubt Iran would ever use those nuclear weapons on Israel given Israel's superior nuclear capacity.

The Iranian president has dangerously been painted as stupid byt the US.  The is a fundamental flaw.  He is indeed quite brilliant in his strategy, namely the rallying of Iranian nationalism to stop the "western" reforms that had begun in that country and to be a belligerent in the world big enough to make the west look bad due to its inability to handle the situation.  Through the UN and through outside diplomacy, Iran has exposed western flaws.  In other words, his campaign is designed to embarass and humilitate internationally and rally nationalism domestically by doing so.

Do we have anything to fear in regards to Iran's nuclear programme?  Well consider this: Iran does not have nuclear weapons yet but Pakistan has nuclear weapons capable of hitting Israel right now.  Who is the greater threat to middle east stability?  If an Islamic extremist government gets into Pakistan then the real trouble begins.
 
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WAJ/ESN Corran "Arturus" Hargraves/M-SSD Atrus/VE/VEN/(=A=)(=SA=)(=*MA*=)(=JCPA=)(=SCPA=)[MC:1](x2)[SV][BRC][VC:B][LSM][LoC]


"The way of war is a way of deception. When able, feign inability; when deploying troops, appear not to be. When near, appear far; when far, appear near. Lure with bait; strike with chaos. If the enemy is full, be prepared. If strong, avoid him. If he is angry, disconcert him. If he is weak, stir him to pride. If he is relaxed, harry him; if his men are harmonious, split them. Attack where he is unprepared; appear where you are unexpected. This is victory in warfare; it cannot be divulged in advance. Victory belongs to the side that scores most in the temple calculations before battle. Most spells victory; least spells defeat; none, surer defeat. I see it in this way, and the outcome is apparent." -- Sun Tzu

"Ultimate excellence lies not in winning every battle but in defeating the enemy without ever fighting." -- Sun Tzu
chipmunk man
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
May 31, 2006 3:12:39 PM    View the profile of chipmunk man 
Except that Pakistan cooperates, Iran does not. I don't know about you folks, but I do not cherish the thought of an Iranian sneaking across the border like the illegal immigrants, and bringing with him a nuke in a suitcase.
 
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Aphamos
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
May 31, 2006 3:59:08 PM    View the profile of Aphamos 
I understand this is a bit off topic, and I don't want to cause any trouble at all, but Arturus, with all due respect, I severly disagree with parts of your past statement, and strongly agree with Jakireth.  You are correct on the fact that Iran does not have the capabilities of creating nuclear weapons; the plants that they are constructing do not posess the power to make nuclear weapons.  Iran has given their plants up for search by the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) and various other nations, having all the searches come up with no results whatsoever. 

What I disagree with is your claim of the intelligence of the Iranian president.  He has been painted stupid by the United States for a reason; that reason being that he has killed innocent people and ruined others lives because of the way that he wants things done.  I'm not making this fact up; I have been to Iran many times and have many relatives there who support this statement with events from their own lives.

Also, to say that Iran WAS and that Iraq WASN'T harboring terrorists is outrageous.  The United States' armed forces in Iraq aren't fighting ghosts.  There is a reason that the United States came into Iraq in the first place; to find terrorists.  The United States had information of terrorist organizations, mainly Al-Qaeda, that were stationed in Iraq. 

This is all merely my opinion; my take on the situation, and it just happens to differ from others. 
 
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Arturus
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 1, 2006 6:44:14 AM    View the profile of Arturus 
Aphamos, Iran currently does not have that capability but there are worrying signs that they want to advance towards this.  You don't need to be a neoconversative to be nervous about this situation.  Anyone against the proliferation of nuclear weapons, in particular by belligerent states, should be a bit concerned.  It is better to be concerned before they have the capability rather than after they have the capability or even worse after they have managed to build a weapon.  Will they managed in the future?  It is not a certainty but it is better to chart a course now rather than find out later.

"He has been painted stupid by the United States for a reason; that reason being that he has killed innocent people and ruined others lives because of the way that he wants things done."

He has killed people and become the very public and vocal face of the conservative Islamic movement in Iran.  This makes him stupid how?  This kind of rhetoric is fundamentally dangerous not the least beause it causes people to greatly underestimate him and underestimating a potential threat to world peace and security is a very fatal flaw indeed.

Let me put a bit of context into this to explain his actions.  He was born just after the US-UK involvement in Iran that put the pro-west Shah in power.  In his childhood, this phenomenon, which angered Iranian nationalists and Iranians in general (the Shah was brutal) was very prominent.  As a result, he would have been a staunch supporter of the Iranian revolution and as a result, clearly anti-west.  In addition, his political persuasion Islamic conservative which is why his thinking is so in line with the clerics and combined with his very vocal denunciations of the west have given him a bit of charm to many Iranians.  He is fuelling the fires of nationalism and doing a very good job of it.  Do all agree with him?  Absolutely not.  The reformist movement in particular would be be particularly angry and worried about this.  Nevertheless, playing to the nationalism of Iranians and in particular using the nuclear issue as a catalyst through which to rally very anti-west sentiments that exist in the Middle East (thanks in no small part to the invasion of Iraq) and the context of him can be better understood.  He is not stupid, far from it.  I would argue that he is quite clever and we are making a grave mistake in underestimating him by calling him stupid and insane.

Now to Iraq.  Your argument regarding Iraq is fallacious.  By stating that there are terrorists there now you assume that they were always there.  There is a fundamentally flawed assessment on the situation there.  What we see in Iraq is a combination of some foreign fighters, former Baathist supporters, and radical Iraqi nationalists.  In addition, there is a large group of people whose nationalist sensibilities have been offended and terrorist groups are trying to play upon that in order to gain new recruits.  Al Qaeda's overall goal is a full Middle East revolution to create all Islamic states.  To date, their objective has been a miserable failure.  I would argue the attacks on the US were a new tactic to help their cause.

Attacking the US would naturally generate a response of some kind.  The response was the invasion of Afghanistan and the invasion of Iraq.  Why would Al Qaeda want this?  Invading Afghanistan, while overthrowing the Al Qaeda sponsored government, had the potential to bring in new recruits.  Invading Iraq not only gave them this opportunity (which given Saddam Hussein's secular dictatorship was an opportunity they did not have earlier) but it also meant that a corrupt secular dictatorship was overthrown with the potential for a Islamic government in the future.

The US did not go to Iraq to fight terrorists.  They made an uncredible case about weapons of mass destruction and the terrorist argument came as backup when the first argument was having holes shot in it.  Iraq was not a terrorist haven, it would be make no strategic sense for Saddam Hussein to allow it.  His regime was the exact kind they want to overthrow; why would he allow his enemies refuge in his own country where they could try and incite more people to challenge him?  The west has painted a picture of Saddam Hussein as another unintelligent, rather insane leader which has allowed the debate to be clouded on this issue.  Saddam Hussein may have been lacing in regards to the issue of waging aggressive war but he was very good at preserving his power and quashing any threat to it.  As far as Al Qaeda is concerned, he was an enemy and not a friend.

Finally in regards to a suitcase bomb, Wikipedia actually has a fairly good article on the suitcase bomb.  I wouldn't worry about it too much.  As far illegal immigration, one day I'll write about the racialization of immigration in the US so stay tuned.
 
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WAJ/ESN Corran "Arturus" Hargraves/M-SSD Atrus/VE/VEN/(=A=)(=SA=)(=*MA*=)(=JCPA=)(=SCPA=)[MC:1](x2)[SV][BRC][VC:B][LSM][LoC]


"The way of war is a way of deception. When able, feign inability; when deploying troops, appear not to be. When near, appear far; when far, appear near. Lure with bait; strike with chaos. If the enemy is full, be prepared. If strong, avoid him. If he is angry, disconcert him. If he is weak, stir him to pride. If he is relaxed, harry him; if his men are harmonious, split them. Attack where he is unprepared; appear where you are unexpected. This is victory in warfare; it cannot be divulged in advance. Victory belongs to the side that scores most in the temple calculations before battle. Most spells victory; least spells defeat; none, surer defeat. I see it in this way, and the outcome is apparent." -- Sun Tzu

"Ultimate excellence lies not in winning every battle but in defeating the enemy without ever fighting." -- Sun Tzu
Rogueboy
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 1, 2006 9:05:43 AM    View the profile of Rogueboy 
While I'm not to current with this situation I'm going to list two facts 1. There has only been one country in the world to use nuclear weapons on innocents (America) 2. Less than 5% of containers at the docks are checked, which would make a suitcase not that hard to get through.
 
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He will give them death, and they will love him for it -Gladiator

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Arturus
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 1, 2006 10:31:30 AM    View the profile of Arturus 
Container security is an enormous issue.  As a research assistant this has been the area of research I've been engaged in for a while now and in most areas of the world with the exception of Hong Kong port security and container security are very serious issues but receieve very little in terms of funding and resources.

Too bad governments won't listen though.
 
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WAJ/ESN Corran "Arturus" Hargraves/M-SSD Atrus/VE/VEN/(=A=)(=SA=)(=*MA*=)(=JCPA=)(=SCPA=)[MC:1](x2)[SV][BRC][VC:B][LSM][LoC]


"The way of war is a way of deception. When able, feign inability; when deploying troops, appear not to be. When near, appear far; when far, appear near. Lure with bait; strike with chaos. If the enemy is full, be prepared. If strong, avoid him. If he is angry, disconcert him. If he is weak, stir him to pride. If he is relaxed, harry him; if his men are harmonious, split them. Attack where he is unprepared; appear where you are unexpected. This is victory in warfare; it cannot be divulged in advance. Victory belongs to the side that scores most in the temple calculations before battle. Most spells victory; least spells defeat; none, surer defeat. I see it in this way, and the outcome is apparent." -- Sun Tzu

"Ultimate excellence lies not in winning every battle but in defeating the enemy without ever fighting." -- Sun Tzu
Sandwich Sam
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 1, 2006 12:29:27 AM    View the profile of Sandwich Sam 
Rogueboy, the fact that the United States used a nuclear weapon on "innocence," which I believe that you are referring to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, really was not an attack on innocence. These two places were chosen for their active military stations. Nagasaki had a large industry for many war materials and the same holds true for Hiroshima.

I truly believe that had the U.S. not dropped the bomb on Japan, there would have been far more casualties for both sides and the war would have continued on for much longer. The main reason, other than the afore mentioned, for dropping the bomb there was to encourage Japan to drop out of the war. Thus eliminating the Pacific threat to the United States. I know that there is much more to that topic, but I don't really care to go in depth about that because it is off topic.

Now for the topic discussion.
I wouldn't say that it is a matter of who called who stupid, which is really a third grade tactic, if one would even call it a "tactic." I feel the only reason that the U.S. is focusing on Iran's nuclear program is that it is highly active currently. At least in comparison to some other nation's programs. Now some would say, "What about North Korea?" Well, the U.S. and N. Korea have entered into a more stable relation currently and is not as much of a worry. Though, I would hope to believe that the U.S. government is keeping an "eye peeled" for any undesirable activity in N. Korea.
That is just my point of view on the topic, which I can admit is limited; but I do some research on topics like this before I post anything.
 
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DarkDragoons

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Atrick25
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 1, 2006 7:58:49 PM    View the profile of Atrick25 
I feel we don't really have the right to invade Iran YET because their uranium enriching facilities are so low. But we should keep an eye on them, because their president is a raving lunatic.
[This message has been edited by Atrick25 (edited June 1, 2006 7:59:06 PM)]
Rogueboy
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 2, 2006 8:38:41 AM    View the profile of Rogueboy 
how can you say that unless you have met the man personally? The only feedback your getting is from media and lets face it the media does alot of censorship. Let's not forget that alot of people who have been called insane have turned out to be geniuses perhaps the president of Iran is an idiot savant?
 
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He will give them death, and they will love him for it -Gladiator

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Jakireth
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 2, 2006 12:01:31 AM    View the profile of Jakireth 
Art, you're going to tell me I'm wrong?

First off, I know you're a textbook genius on the political affairs of countries you don't reside in, but, do me a big favor and pop the Maple candy out of your mouth. It's apparently affecting your thought process.

Now, there's no need to go into specifics here, for there is one big problem. The United States considers itself the most powerful single entity in the world, and from Bush's misguided notions, the universe as we know it. As of now, we are run by egotistical maniacs bent on sucking our way of life dry, and letting the lot of us fend for ourselves.

But after that, all of your ideas about the Patriotic Jak are probably swept away, but that would be wrong. I love my country, the people in it, and its base concept. I'm talking about freedom, football, and barbecues. NOT: Bush, his Cabinet of Death or the misguided and completely immoral principles on which our leaders twisted sense of logic emerges from. Terrorist organizations in Iran? Sure. You keep telling yourself that. In fact, go ahead and join the ranks of those who thought Afghanistan a threat. Those who on one fateful night decided to toss the city of Baghdad into a torrent of falling bombs, because it was thought a threat to the U.S.

And what have we to show for it?

A massive death toll, a ranting dictator in shackles, and a President fighting the idea of impeachment from the citizens. Definitely a sound tradeoff for what was supposed to be a cache of nuclear weapons.

But sure, lets find someone else to threaten. Actually, who else better to bully than Iran? They have an outstanding history of violence against the U.S., hell, they're enriching uranium to reap the benefits of nuclear energy.

Iraq then Iran? I wonder why.
 
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NightStalkers
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Rogueboy
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 2, 2006 1:47:35 PM    View the profile of Rogueboy 
Which of course leads us to the next question who is after Iran? because thats what countries do when they're bored they go to war.
 
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He will give them death, and they will love him for it -Gladiator

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Atrick25
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 2, 2006 2:23:46 PM    View the profile of Atrick25 
That's just miliarism right there. We justify the war in Iraq as a way to squash out terrorism. We are restricted to ROE but are the terrorists? NO. Because they fight guerilla style, many americans and alliance people are dead.
 
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Garet Daimun
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 2, 2006 2:29:18 PM    View the profile of Garet Daimun 
There is no justification for the War. Like Jak said, we don't have anything to show for it, except for thousands of triangle shaped flags.

We're only have our sights on Iran because Bush needs something to give this War a purpose. I guarantee that when he goes out of office, the first thing our President will do is pull our troops out (unless Bush succeeds). The whole thing is an unorganized mess, with no clear goal or plan of action. It's Vietnam all over again.
 
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DarkDragoons
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-Jennifer Mui, Mercenaries
Rogueboy
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 2, 2006 2:38:19 PM    View the profile of Rogueboy 
Agreed Garet, also I "Think" and when i say think i mean not sure at all but didnt Americans invent guerilla tactics during American Revolution? Only reason I have this notion is from the movie the Patriot
 
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He will give them death, and they will love him for it -Gladiator

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Demonic
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 2, 2006 3:33:41 PM    View the profile of Demonic 
Heh... I think Guerilla tactics have been around for a while...
 
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Cosmic
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 2, 2006 4:22:19 PM    View the profile of Cosmic 
*Exciting music in the background*

"Nukear Weapons"
 
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Angel
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 2, 2006 5:21:49 PM    View the profile of Angel 
Good God...

when did the VE turn into a political forum?
 
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Garet Daimun
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 2, 2006 6:35:49 PM    View the profile of Garet Daimun 
May 31, 2006 4:50:51 AM EST
 
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DarkDragoons
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Leon
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 2, 2006 8:49:52 PM    View the profile of Leon 
lol, I agree with Garet, he has the best idea so far. It's mainly bushes fault, we've been in there way to long and we should get our selves out. Were losing alot of troopers for no real cause right now, and bush should just resign. He's just being a stupid president right now and he's ignoring the truth. Thats my oppinion and I think thats the true reason. He needs to admit that he made a big mistake.
 
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Garet Daimun
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 2, 2006 8:51:54 PM    View the profile of Garet Daimun 
Bush is quickly becoming the next Nixon. Too proud to come forward and admit he made a mistake.

And to think that we re-elected both of them...
 
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DarkDragoons
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 2, 2006 8:53:35 PM    View the profile of Leon 
Exactly, thanks for backing me up on this one Garet.
 
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Atrick25
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 2, 2006 10:18:34 PM    View the profile of Atrick25 
Strange thing about Bush is that he lost the popular vote but still won. That makes you think that your vote doesn't count does it? I smell some bribes people.
 
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Jennabelle
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 3, 2006 7:30:45 AM    View the profile of Jennabelle 
first of all, someone mentioned about an ROE? What's that?

And second, I fully agree with Garet, because bush should have sat back and let Saddam destroy Al Queda, that way, After that war's over, it's easier to end saddam and to pull out, all good, don't you think?
 
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Arturus
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 3, 2006 10:12:22 AM    View the profile of Arturus 
"Agreed Garet, also I "Think" and when i say think i mean not sure at all but didnt Americans invent guerilla tactics during American Revolution? Only reason I have this notion is from the movie the Patriot"

Guerilla tactics have been used since antiquity.  When fighting the Sabinii in Italy during the earlier years of the Republic, Rome found itself up against a dynamic enemy with no centralized point of defence.  Indeed it is from the Sabinii that the Romans first ran into and eventually adopted the use of the pilum for their armies.

Now in response to Jak.  First of all let me make it clear, while there are philosophical arguments that can justify a war such as the war in Iraq (I highly recommend you read the Responsibility to Protect doctrine which advocates a mixture of traditional and new muscular liberal internationalism and places human security as the primary focus of international affairs and priorities for the western world) there was no credible argument that could be made in reality and indeed the war was launched on manipulative, disingenuous, and fallacious reasoning, arguments, and evidence.  I have never supported the war in Iraq so let me get that clear now.

As for Afghanistan I strongly supported that war and still do despite the fact that Canada is taking casualities there at a steady pace.  If anything I am angry at the US for abandonning the war in Afghanistan to launch their foolheartedy war against Iraq.  The reason we are not further along in Afghanistan can be attributed to this extremely poor strategic decision on the part of the US to shift the focus of the military before the primary objective was completed.

In regards to Iran, I am not at all supporting a war against Iran but I am suggestion vigilance and caution be the approach to dealing with them.  I contextualized the actions of the Iranian president and argued why he was a rational leader with a clear set of priorities for Iran.  Part of that involves this bluster with the international community in order to rally nationalistic sentiments in Iran.  In addition, he rather than the clerics has become the voice of Islamic conservatism in Iran which, while early to say, could suggest an attempt to wrestle greater control for the presidency in the long run and a desire to try and keep running for office for some time.  Should the US invade Iran?  Absolutely not.  However, it would be fool hearty not to keep an active dialogue with Iran and try to keep some control over its nuclear programme.
 
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WAJ/ESN Corran "Arturus" Hargraves/M-SSD Atrus/VE/VEN/(=A=)(=SA=)(=*MA*=)(=JCPA=)(=SCPA=)[MC:1](x2)[SV][BRC][VC:B][LSM][LoC]


"The way of war is a way of deception. When able, feign inability; when deploying troops, appear not to be. When near, appear far; when far, appear near. Lure with bait; strike with chaos. If the enemy is full, be prepared. If strong, avoid him. If he is angry, disconcert him. If he is weak, stir him to pride. If he is relaxed, harry him; if his men are harmonious, split them. Attack where he is unprepared; appear where you are unexpected. This is victory in warfare; it cannot be divulged in advance. Victory belongs to the side that scores most in the temple calculations before battle. Most spells victory; least spells defeat; none, surer defeat. I see it in this way, and the outcome is apparent." -- Sun Tzu

"Ultimate excellence lies not in winning every battle but in defeating the enemy without ever fighting." -- Sun Tzu
Arturus
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 3, 2006 10:16:46 AM    View the profile of Arturus 
Chipmunk said: "Except that Pakistan cooperates, Iran does not. I don't know about you folks, but I do not cherish the thought of an Iranian sneaking across the border like the illegal immigrants, and bringing with him a nuke in a suitcase."

Pakistan will cooperate as long as people like President General Pervez Mushareff run the country.  Under a different regime we can't be sure.

In regards to the threat of a "suitcase" bomb, Wikipedia has a pretty good article on it which should alleviate some of your fears.  Personally I'd be more afraid of a terrorist blowing up an LNG tanker (aka. a 500,000 litre floating bomb), many of which enter right into the middle of major US cities including Boston.  The damage an attack on an LNG tanker could do is frightening.  In 1917 a fire onboard an ammunition ship causing it to explode in Halifax Harbour flattened much of the cities and caused thousands of deaths and injuries.  It was the largest man-made explosion prior to the atomic age.  Just imagine what an exploding LNG tanker would do.
 
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WAJ/ESN Corran "Arturus" Hargraves/M-SSD Atrus/VE/VEN/(=A=)(=SA=)(=*MA*=)(=JCPA=)(=SCPA=)[MC:1](x2)[SV][BRC][VC:B][LSM][LoC]


"The way of war is a way of deception. When able, feign inability; when deploying troops, appear not to be. When near, appear far; when far, appear near. Lure with bait; strike with chaos. If the enemy is full, be prepared. If strong, avoid him. If he is angry, disconcert him. If he is weak, stir him to pride. If he is relaxed, harry him; if his men are harmonious, split them. Attack where he is unprepared; appear where you are unexpected. This is victory in warfare; it cannot be divulged in advance. Victory belongs to the side that scores most in the temple calculations before battle. Most spells victory; least spells defeat; none, surer defeat. I see it in this way, and the outcome is apparent." -- Sun Tzu

"Ultimate excellence lies not in winning every battle but in defeating the enemy without ever fighting." -- Sun Tzu
Darr-Rann
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 3, 2006 10:58:39 AM    View the profile of Darr-Rann 
A halifax explosion refrence... heh.
 
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 3, 2006 8:37:35 PM    View the profile of Jennabelle 
anyone just looked at my post, my second one, I had some questions and thoughts there.
 
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DarkDragoons

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"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force. " -Darth Vader
Atrick25
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  RE: Iraq then Iran
June 3, 2006 8:50:55 PM    View the profile of Atrick25 
ROE is the Rules Of Engagement used by the US Military like no shooting civilians and such.

It would of been easier, but he obviously didn't want to wait.
 
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