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Aeos
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  Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 20, 2015 2:49:15 PM    View the profile of Aeos 
I'm pasting a discussion Amacuse and I were having in slack, and would love some feedback on this.

OOC:
Ae [2:09 AM]
Navy started their own story thread so all the love will be going there it seems

WO1 Cayden Tavers [2:14 AM]

I'm gonna urge that the squadron does post to Revival, just so it doesn't seem like we abandoned you Army folks

Ae [2:16 AM]
But in all seriousness, my personal opinion is that it was a premature launch for a division story when we are still trying to figure out what is going on with the VE and the system. I am not the only person who felt that putting up a squadron story with a 'weekly reports request' post about admin suggested that we are simply going to revert back to old form and habbits whih is what killed us in the first place. The Revival story is about Ve wide story in a time of real crisis for the website, and having an additional thread diminishes that.


WO1 Cayden Tavers [4:15 AM]

I actually do understand where you are coming from on this.  Is the VE at a spot where it is ready to do this?  No.  Heck, the Navy isn't even ready for a dedicated unit story.  I've got a bunch of old vets, some of whom haven't posted since before 2010.  It you are right.  Posting that while the VE-wide thread was just barely getting started is premature and can easily be seen as both arrogant and short-sighted.  All my reports are short, most include stuff about wiki/bio work, and that's about it.  But, I will make sure to inform my superiors of this, and request to hold off on the story until not only we managed to decide what timeline we are following, but also when BOTH divisions are ready to get into the swing of things.  Navy may act like it's got it's shit together, but it's not fair, and just downright pretentious, for us to start a unit story while members of the Army are still having issues just posting to your Squad Forum, let alone to a unit story itself.

Ae [9:26 PM]
It;s not an issue of just whether the divisions are ready, but also understanding how we want the VE to move forward and whether there is still a space for our old way of doing things.  I doubt DireSquad will post anything squad missions any time soon. We're all very cautious about this, especially some of the more senior members. But thanks for responding to my comment. It's important to have these discusions and I wasn;t sure how to bring it up.


WO1 Cayden Tavers [9:29 PM]

No, no... You were absolutely right.  We were moving to fast by starting a unit story.  It's something that we are currently tabling for the future, when the more veteran members are comfortable with things here, and we know what direction the club is going, both with the state of the seniority, as well as the timeline we will be writing in.

Honestly?  I don't see either division starting an official story until next year... Mainly because we're still doing a lot of restructuring all across the board, and we need to spend time getting comfortable with things here.

Ae [9:32 PM]
Something that lies close to my heart, and Snipes and I were discussing this earlier; the divide between the navy and army became too great. There were too little opportunity to get to know each other creatively across stories, which is something that I hope we can address in the future. Which is why the Revival story is so important because we can hopefully start crossing that bridge

WO1 Cayden Tavers [9:36 PM]
It's something I want to try too, honestly.  I want nothing more than to post a joint-division story where both groups have to work together in unison to accomplish a mission.  I don't mean we just fly around shooting things while you guys go and get dirty on the ground.  I mean some Navy folks joining you on the ground, and possibly some of you joining us in the skies.  Heck, even ship-boarding missions could be interesting, or invading pirate outposts.

I've got plenty of ideas for potential stories both divisions can do together, not just as Navy and Army supporting one-another, but as a single, unified Empire working as a single, cohesive unit.

I wasn't here when the divide grew to the point where the club collapsed in on itself... I actually left the year prior because I had issues with the NHC then.  But I do want to bridge the gap between the Army and Navy... And would really like to have more stories like Revival in the future.

Ae [9:43 PM]

I love the idea of invading pirate outposts as a joint mission, and I can already see the potential for it. As the vast empire collapsed, alot of our outposts were taken over, and we lost some strategic points. One of first missions would be take it back

?[9:43]
If you dont mind, I would like to post this discussion we're having into a thread :simple_smile:

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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 20, 2015 2:53:41 PM    View the profile of Gurlanin 
What in particular would you like feedback on? Army and Navy working together in stories in the future?
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 20, 2015 2:56:41 PM    View the profile of Aeos 
Well, basically, what can we as the VE do to have more interaction with eachother, and are we going to have those two divisions, or should we go for a unified special division that throws us together just until we can get our membership count sorted out? Our energies on both divisions are just too weak right now still, but combined we can spark eachother.

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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 20, 2015 3:00:33 PM    View the profile of Amacuse 
With the VE being missing from the sector the last two years, one would expect pirates and such to move in and take some places over.

Can't expect just the Navy or the Army to deal with the threat alone.  We're still too weak, attempting to rebuild.  It would make logical sense for both groups to work together to retake outlying stations and facilities.

Plus... I've been dying to write with the Army for quite a while, and I think this reboot of the club gives us the perfect opportunity to repair the gap between the divisions and to help spur on the growths of new friendships across the board, both IC and OOC.
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[This message has been edited by Amacuse (edited December 20, 2015 3:00:47 PM)]
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 20, 2015 3:09:03 PM    View the profile of Sandwich Sam 
From what I've been reading story wise and gather from the general feel of the state of the VE, it may be best to consolidate. It may even be better if the Army side is renamed into the Marines or something.

I only suggest this as there is a direct link between Navy and Marines. Given our scattered setup at the moment, we don't have a ground force that 'army' may imply. This would allow for joint missions that aren't limited to spaceflight or planetary battles. It would allow for ship to ship and boarding stories. Overall force both divisions to work with one another.

Yes, technically marines are a part of the navy; but we are writing the stories here. Changes can be made to that.


Just my insight into it all.
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 20, 2015 4:15:30 PM    View the profile of Gurlanin 
I want to see TFA before I can make any real comments. It might spark an idea or two.
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 20, 2015 5:04:14 PM    View the profile of Skarr 
Personally, when we migrated over to Empire's Edge, our Stormtrooper Corps were Marines. We were stationed on a Star Destroyer with the Navy peeps, so there was some interaction there. A lot of what happened was ship to ship combat with Marines also landing on planets during conflicts. So I'm in favor of the Army getting a rebrand to Marines.
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 20, 2015 6:15:26 PM    View the profile of Japheth 
As it happens we have a Marine Corps set up already, but I don't think that's a necessary thing to do. I think that primarily because, if you look at Star Wars as it exists now, that's what Stormtroopers already do. Realistically, that's the way they must be in an interstellar setting. Sure some units will be posted in ground locations and hardly ever see the inside of a ship - but so do a lot (actually probably the majority) of RL Marines.

In the Star Wars, though, there's going to be a real need to have soldiers (Stormtroopers or otherwise) on board capital ships in particular and most ships larger than transports in general. They provide, at minimum, security (ie: anti-boarding party force) and can be deployed for ground attacks or boarding operations as needed. Because while naval members have almost certainly been trained to use and fire guns, a lot of their training has gone toward starship operation or piloting rather than the sort of ground tactics needed to be truly effective in a firefight (that isn't taking place between ships).
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 21, 2015 12:33:01 AM    View the profile of Drac 
I wish I'd been able to post on this sooner- crazy busy weekend- but I'd like to take the opportunity to personally apologize to the club in general and the Army folks in particular for approving that story to start. I failed to think through the situation and the implications and jumped the gun instead. I may not have been the only one involved in starting the story, but I was the one whose responsibilities include considering things on that level and I failed to do so. For that, I apologize. I'll try to be more conscientious from now on. Props to Amacuse for recognizing the issue first and for handling it so well once it became apparent how we had erred.

Regarding the main thrust of the discussion: I love the idea of both groups working closely together in stories. There was a time a good six or seven years ago when it wasn't all that uncommon for VEN pilots to end up in firefights on the ground or aboard large craft. I think it would have been great to bring Army folks in on those sequences. I'd bet that there's probably some similar crossover material in the Army's stories over the years that we'd have gotten a big kick out of getting to join in on. And I think there's a lot of potential for great stories to come out of that sort of collaboration now.

I think that designing and writing stories that incorporate that type of interaction will also bring out a new level of creativity in our stories that can do a lot to continue breathing life into the club.

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[This message has been edited by Drac (edited December 21, 2015 12:34:58 AM)]
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 21, 2015 11:29:50 AM    View the profile of Gurlanin 
The problem that I've seen in the past, is that stories that both the Army and Navy write in still tend to be split in two: the Army writes their bit, and the Navy writes theirs.

Might be an idea to think of scenarios that would realistically have both groups. Obviously not every story we write has to be a joint operation, but it's good to have ideas for nice big collaborative campaigns.

These are some of the places/scenarios that I could see everyone being involved in:

- Off Duty
    - Shore Leave
    - Bar/Cantina

- On Duty
    - Training
          - Army teaching Navy CQB
          - Navy teaching Army how to fly in emergencies
    - Battle
          - Air Support
              - Army Task Force designates target for precision air strike
              - TIEs give ground forces cover from enemy starfighters/bomb heavy targets/etc.
          - Troop Transport Escort

Like I said, these are just some ideas to get the ball rolling.
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 21, 2015 11:35:54 AM    View the profile of Skarr 
Speaking from personal experience, yeah. Everything tended to be separate even when we were working together. To the point where I wouldn't even read the Navy's part of the story. Especially as I became busier, because let's face it, you Navy peeps are pretty detailed and long winded sometimes (not a bad thing). But I just didn't have time to catch up on a side of the story that had no bearing on mine.

So we definitely need to find a way to get both branches working together in some shape or form and making one side matter to the other.
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 21, 2015 1:25:47 PM    View the profile of Drac 
One thing that jumped out to me as something we could do from time to time, at least during missions on planets, is have a couple of pilots end up getting shot down (these are TIEs, after all) and hooking up with an STC unit on the ground whether by chance or as a recovery party or however, and then having the pilots accompany them for the rest of the mission as basically an extra member of the squad.

Similarly, some other mission ideas that could result in working closely together:

-A combined unit lands on a planet to re-establish the VE's presence and control of the local government. They're initially received pretty warmly, but an influential portion of the populace objects to their return and destroys the hangar housing the squadron's TIEs and the STC squad's shuttle/drop ship. With no other ships available at that spaceport to exfiltrate with, they're forced to steal swoop bikes/hover bikes/etc and either find a comm center with equipment good enough to use for requesting backup or must look elsewhere to find and capture a ship or ships capable of getting them off-planet.

-A simple boarding action of a large pirate vessel that the VE wants. Maybe a gozanti cruiser or something. The TIEs escort the Stormtroopers' shuttle into the hangar, but the boarding party soon realizes that there are more pirates aboard than originally thought. Since time is short, several TIE pilots land their craft in the hangar and join up with the Stormtroopers to help even the odds a bit.

-Facing a shortage of qualified pilots, the VE assigns some TIE pilots to fly gunships carrying a squad or two of Stormtroopers on a low-altitude flight to destroy enemy supply depots, checkpoints, etc. Basically, the SW equivalent to a real world patrol and attack mission by Blackhawks with their side-mounted machine guns, etc.

-Drac
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 21, 2015 3:56:49 PM    View the profile of Gurlanin 
I'd quite happily fly a gunship, or do some commando pilot type thing.

That was the sort of thing that I was trying to get Strill doing when the VE wound down the first time. They were meant to be ace pilots who would be able to break through blockades, land, infiltrate, blow stuff up, exfiltrate, then fly out. Would be nice to do something like that again with the Army folks, even if it's being a gunship pilot.
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 22, 2015 1:23:12 AM    View the profile of Trykon 
Love, love, love that we're finally brainstorming lists of scenarios that might see characters from the STC and SFC interact more.

Getting shot down is a great one.  Troopers as gunners on larger craft is also possible.  Close air support for ground operations is very cool, and we've under-used it.  Boarding actions and repelling boarders, maybe around hangars.  All good notions!

I think a lot of folks are talking about us prioritizing joint operations more, once we reboot for real.  I'm among them: I think we need to focus more on having our characters interact.

Also, though, let's not assume the old VE timeline and canon (which have been preserved, largely, in Revival) are being kept.  I only mention it because it may be possible for us to have grand, epic-scale joint operations, and not just small mixed units, as if we were rebuilding from scratch.  It might look closer to what the EE did, which was reboot to just after Endor, where our "faction" starts as just a area of Imperial Space, which slowly finds itself fending for itself, more and more, as the larger Empire collapses.  My point is: we haven't made any hard-and-fast choices, yet. 

The other thing I wanted to inject into this discussion is the notion of "transferring" that the VE used to do.  It always struck me as silly, and a symptom of this divide we're talking about.

As is my way, I've spent many hours over the past few days drafting a rambling, too-long essay on the subject of unifying the old Divisions.  Let me see if I can summarize my ideas briefly here, rather than finish that monster of a proposal.

The most important concept, that underlies all my subsequent ideas, is that a member of the VE is not the same thing as his/her character.  If we break that equivalency, we give ourselves more freedom.  Including, potentially, the freedom to "transfer" at will.

Picture this (a vision of a different way careers could work, in a new VE): A newb joins the VE.  She goes to The Academy (there is only one).  She learns she has to start playing the game with either a pilot or trooper character, but that eventually, she'll unlock the right to write from other POVs.  She'll unlock these options by contributing to the club.  It doesn't matter what her fictional character does, in-story: only her own actions, OOC, determine what her club career looks like.  So, she chooses to role a trooper, for her first character.  Over time, she contributes to the VE: she's active, she keeps getting better and better at writing, she's a positive presence in the community.  These contributions earn her promotions: her rank increases.  At certain levels of rank, she "unlocks" new abilities, like the ability, say, to write more than one character.  Eventually, if she becomes an Officer, she's given the authority to write characters from outside her starting Corps.  No need for her to "transfer."  She's still at whatever rank level she herself has achieved.  But now, she's a veteran of the club, and how we role-play.  She can see if a story needs a certain POV to keep things moving, or introduce a new threat, or whatever, and she's trusted to do that herself.  She can invent characters for a one-off post.  Or she can develop a stable of characters that she gets to know over time.  Or she can CHOOSE to do things the old VE way, and just maintain a single character over her whole career with the club.  But the choice is hers, and there's no weird transferring, because SHE isn't different than anyone else in the club.  She is not her character.

If we do things closer to that than the old ways, I think a lot of the rivalry goes away.  Friendly competition remains, but just as two different "units" of the club trying to one-up each other, rather than as two completely separate groups, with separate rank systems, academies, etc.
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 22, 2015 6:41:03 AM    View the profile of Gurlanin 
I do like the mixed idea.
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 22, 2015 8:22:48 AM    View the profile of Amacuse 
I'm actually going to say that I don't like the mixed idea.  I'm sorry, but it sounds way too much like what's going on in the world today, which is essentially just taking the problem and dressing it in a pretty gown, giving it everything it wants, and trying to make it happy... As opposed to addressing it, which is what would happen if we did joint Army-Navy missions.  Army needs some pilots?  We hop into the story with them.  We need some ground-obliterating soldiers?  They hop into the story with us.  Yeah, it's going to require some work from both sides, and a lot of cooperation and coordination, but it is something that can be done.  Something that DOES have to be addressed is not the ranks themselves, but how promotions are handled.  I'm sorry, but I'm going to use you as an example Trick.  In less than a year, you went from the lowest rung on the ladder, to practically third in command of the whole navy.  A lot of the stuff you did, I STILL don't know what it was.  A lot of that stuff, as far as I've seen, has been thrown into the trash can during the last few weeks.  But still, no one should EVER climb the rank ladder that fast... Ever.  Army folds can go two-three YEARS without moving up from Sergeant, or even Private First Class.  So what I think is needed is a uniform method of promoting and rewarding, not a uniform system of ranks.  A classification for ranks, yes.  Like E-1, E-2, E-3, etc.  The only difference being when you get to the Warrant Officer ranks in the navy, but we'll probably just put those was E-10, E-11, and E-12... Or something like that.

I know that a few people here are all for unifying everyone... I just feel that if we did that, we'd spend the next few months fleshing out all the intricacies and stuff, and activity would die out again.  And that is something I am very much not going to allow to happen.
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[This message has been edited by Amacuse (edited December 22, 2015 8:23:28 AM)]
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 22, 2015 8:38:55 AM    View the profile of Heliwer117 
I think honestly the Army and Navy should be separate, but there should be more interaction between the two branches, work together more, do stuff where both Army and Navy get to contribute. It means that both divisions keep their identities and we are able to run missions together. It would encourage more interaction between the two branches. Plus I think that most people who join in join for a specific division, and it's only later on down the line that they transfer to the other (at least that's my opinion)
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 22, 2015 8:58:21 AM    View the profile of Aeos 
In regards to promotions and ranking, I'm with Amacuse here on how it's handled. Havock and I were just discussing it. On the Army we had a much uglier thing happening in regards to promotions. People were rewarded simply for logging in or whatever, and sometimes unsuited people were assigned key leading positions that really screwed us in the end.

We do not need to re-invent the wheel, and Amacuse, Trick has done a shitload, he was one of the driving forces that kept the spirit alive by establishing an entire new website, and reworking structures.

I was also an individual who got a ridiculous promotion when I started. I was 15 years, and made a squad leader and a platoon adjutant within 6 months of joining the VE. There were definitely grumbles about, and I don't think it was a wise choice in reference to how young I was literally and figuratively.


I remember when Trick joined and how fast he was moving up, and even though I was from the Army, I knew who he was. A caring compassionate, capable and mature member from which our community could benefit. On the other hand, I've seen people who got into their positions based simply on the amount of time they've been active here, and drive their assignments to ruins.

This is how promotions in real life work as well. When a senior staff member recognises a capable individual, they make the rational decision of whether it is suitable on how to use the qualities of that individual in whatever capacity the organisation requires, even if that means elevating the person far beyond what was initially required. I've definitely had those offers come up in my short real life career so far in the industry. Failing to acknowledge and use a person's enthusiasm and potential is just as short-sighted as making a fifteen year old a Platoon Adjutant within 3 months. The candle burns on both sides of the discussion in regards to promotions and ranks. So yes, I agree with you that we certainly need to check these things properly.

I'm not sure how it works in the Navy, but in the Army you were required to take an exam before consideration for 2ndLt and up. I most certainly had to and was subjected to an hour discussion with AHC individuals in  about the issues of the army, the role of mature leadership, and other additional essays I had to write. That was the Army check system, and back then it was not easy to get into being considered for it, but as time progressed so did our quality control and eventually promotions because like flower-picking right across the VE. Half our membership got accepted into the DJO which was unprecedented years before. We were desperate to award ourselves despite no real progress made.



Could you please explain the reclassification in more detail, I'm afraid I don't understand.

In regards to whether the Army and Navy should be united, I don't think we should merge 100%. Each branch still offers a unique way of writing for people to choose in, but we certainly need to make effort for more inclusion with each other.

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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 22, 2015 9:28:20 AM    View the profile of Aeos 
I would also like to add, it's not necessary to drag peoples' names into issues that can easily be explained as it is without involving their names.  Using a name as an example makes the issue personal. Because really, it sets up a negative precedent.

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[This message has been edited by Aeos (edited December 22, 2015 9:44:57 AM)]
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 22, 2015 9:37:10 AM    View the profile of Mongrel 
If it weren't for Trick and his dedication, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion right now. Generally, I'd probably agree that promotions were handed out too easily, but that was an incredibly shitty example.

The reason for combining Army and Navy is to make this into one community instead of returning to two highly combative communities, and, with how small the community is now, it's much more effective to have a singular small administration instead of two unwieldy bureaucracies. We want to keep the community alive, but we don't necessarily want to see the VE that was, the VE that we left, return.
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 22, 2015 10:05:48 AM    View the profile of Drac 
The Navy's equivalent of the Army's exam to get to 2LT is/was the FOCE (Field Officer's Candidacy Exam) with a passing grade resulting in promotion to Lieutenant Junior Grade. Exam is a bit of a misnomer as far as it goes, since the main thrust of the FOCE is that the candidate must propose, design,  and implement a project for the betterment of the Navy as a whole. This naturally includes a whole series of discussions with NHC members over a period of usually several weeks at minimum and it helped the division continue to update and evolve. I can't find the FOCE threads at the moment to link to, but they generally addressed things like revamping the naval academy, improving character progression, etc.

Regarding promotions, I'll echo Aeos. There are a bunch of factors that impact how quickly a given person gains rank. Some are the normal contribution-based factors like activity and length of service. Some are intangibles, such as the person's maturity level and leadership capabilities. And some are situational, such as the departure of high-ranked members opening up holes in the command structure that need to be filled.

That last one figures heavily into Trick's rise to NHC level, and into mine as well. The Army had a much more stable group making up their high command, which meant fewer promotions-by-necessity. In the face of a lot of turnover in the NHC over the course of a year and a half or so, the Navy did what it needed to. Neither is necessarily the right way- they're just different.

-----

I do think the branches should remain separate, whether as they are now or combined under a unified Imperial Navy as we did in the EE. There needs to be systematic and consistent interaction in-character, but at the same time not all stories are necessarily going to involve both. And that's okay.

But that isn't necessarily intrinsically tied together with Trick's other point, about creating a bit more distinction between the member and their character(s).

In the past when someone has wanted to create an alternate character in the other division, they almost always did so by creating a new account for that character. I think this actually helped contribute to the distance that grew between the divisions in a couple of ways: 1) It made using both characters inconvenient. It required logging out and logging back in, and computers generally only save one set of login info anyway. Eventually that gets tiresome and, generally, the new character starts getting neglected and the attempt to reach across the gap dies off. 2) It creates a separation of identity in other members' minds. From the outside you see two different accounts (assuming they were successful in maintaining both), each posting pretty much only within their division, and unless they're careful to consistently include some sort of reminder you eventually start dis-associating the two. It becomes as if there were two separate members rather than one. And the only person who ends up really creating connections on both sides is the member with the two accounts.

So that's one thing I'd like to see: It should be a pretty normal thing for members to be able to start and write characters in both divisions, and to write both through the same account. So you see one name on the forum and that same name in Slack, hanging out in both the #army and #navy rooms and subforums. Preferably with the stipulation that they can only be in positions of authority in one division at a time, as a safeguard against burnout or RL-related fluctuations in activity that would impact someone with dual roles more than someone with just one set of VE responsibilities to manage. And, except in rare situations with the relevant high command's approval, new characters created by a veteran member should start at the lowest rank just like any other new character. So someone whose first character is a Chief Warrant Officer in the VEN would start a new Army character as a Private First Class* while someone whose first character is a Major in the STC would start a new Navy character as a Leading Crewman.

*or Private Second Class. I'm not sure which it would be and just went with my best guess.

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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 22, 2015 12:02:57 AM    View the profile of Trykon 
I've missed this much activity!  Go to bed, and a bunch of threads have moved on while you sleep!

To catch myself up in this conversation:

1.) To clarify, I didn't mean we'd completely do away with "divisions."  My idea was just to redefine them a bit.  IC, the two Corps would both be subdivision of the Imperial Navy, giving all player-characters the same sort of "home branch" - the Navy.  OOC, the split would mostly be maintained in the early ranks (like in the VE), but once a member was promoted enough (it's debatable, where that line would be, but I thought Officer rank was a good level), he/she would be trusted to write from more and more (and different) POVs.  In the service of bringing needed elements to a given story.  Heliwer, it's almost exactly what you talk about; it's a question of emphasis, more than drastic changes.  As an example: people were talking on Slack about how there were much more Army folks posting to Revival, and how most of the Navy characters were high-ranked folks that wouldn't be in the bar part of the story.  Seeing this, I invented a new, low-ranked TIE pilot character (Rafe Daringer), to insert into the story.  Thereby offering at least one more relatively low-ranked pilot, for the bar part of the story.

2.) Amacuse, the unify-the-branches idea predates all this activity on the ComNet, the past week.  It isn't some sort of quick-fix proposal.  It was something we talked about but failed to implement, before the VE faded into nothingness.  Now that Ep 7 has brought so many people back to the ComNet (and now Slack), people are reevaluating a lot of old ideas and proposals, as we try to identify what went wrong last time, and how best to ensure it doesn't happen again.  This is just one idea, out of many.  That said, I'd love to understand your opposition.  You say you don't like the idea, but then go on to embrace the other things I was talking about: using alpha-numeric "pay-grade"-type designations for rank levels, to encourage people to think about their promotions as OOC awards for activity, more than as IC awards for their characters; better spelling out what leads to promotions OOC, and trying to ensure both Corps are handling promotions more similarly than they used to.  I'm certainly open to criticism, but so far you haven't really critiqued my proposal.

3.) Aeos has the right of it, I think, for promotions.  Both the VEN and VEA of old made mistakes sometimes, where promoting people was concerned.  Part of it, for both Corps I think, was again due to us confusing members with characters: when a leadership position had to be filled by a new member, we often gave the member a rank promotion as well, so their character wouldn't be weirdly junior in the position, IC.  They're different things, and should probably be separated a little more in our minds and practices.  Positions have to be filled by merit, so in certain circumstances, yes: you're going to get relative newcomers like Drac or me, who vault into leadership roles.  But ranks - the rank that displays on the ComNet - doesn't HAVE to be tied to our characters.  It can simply be a reflection of the individual member's contributions, over time, to the club.  Ae, I'll keep banging away at my essay, to explain further: it seems really clear in my mind, but I keep failing to explain it to people who are used to the old VE way of doing/thinking about things.

4.) Mongrel's points are well-taken.  Streamlining is useful, both for when we have few members active, and for minimizing the number of positions that are vulnerable to the absentee-commander phenomenon that plagued the VE toward the end.

5.) I agree with absolutely everything in Drac's post.  In a possibly-defensive bit of self-promotion and -explanation, I'll add that I completed the equivalent of 3 or 4 FOCEs, over my time in the VEN; that's part of the reason I gained rank so fast and so much, Amacuse, along with good outcomes for the stories I was tasked with leading.

His insight about separate accounts is exactly the kind of subtle thing I'm talking about: it doesn't seem like a big deal, but little things add up.  Have ONE account as the norm, but allow folks to belong to multiple branches if they want to, and have proven some level of competency (perhaps marked by achieving a certain rank, as I'm suggesting, perhaps some other marker of maturity and responsibility).  And by all means, incorporate the checks and balances Drac suggests.



Ok, yeah.  Caught up.    For everything I'm talking about on the ComNet this past week (including this thread), I care more about the structural, big-picture stuff than I do about the nitty-gritty details.  It's less important to me, for example, to argue over what the various "rungs" on the "ladder" of rank are called, in the two Corps.  It's way more important to make sure both Corps have the same number of rungs, and are promoting to those rungs using similar rubrics.  Because that uniformity eliminates some of the differences that can contribute to the undesirable divisions we've talked about.
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 22, 2015 12:26:59 AM    View the profile of Havock 
I completely agree with having a "comnet rank" which is separate from our characters rank. If it was up to me (which it is not) I would allow members to give their characters any rank they want up to their current comnet rank. That way if you want to rp a Brigader General you can but you also are free to rp a Major, Sergeant or Private whichever works best. If I'm honest the character Havock should never be in charge of a toaster much less the army so I'd probably knock her down to a lower rank to use her in stories and create an NPC to hold the Prefect position.

Those are my 2 cents.

Oh and Tryks post was downright sexy it was so well put. There 3 cents.
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 22, 2015 6:38:48 PM    View the profile of Mongrel 
If I remember correctly, making your characters rank any rank you want below your comnet rank was something we did in the EE, and it worked pretty well. That's just an aside to a conversation I don't have much left to contribute to.
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  RE: Going forward with the Army and Navy
December 22, 2015 10:53:37 PM    View the profile of Trykon 
Aw shucks, Hav.  And yeah, that was the experiment we ended up running in the EE, Aeos: forum rank is for the member, and is a totally OOC measure of contribution/activity over time, and it allows that member to write characters up to that rank level.  I admit I'm biased, because it was a pet theory of mine for a while, but I'm with Mongrel: I think it worked pretty well.
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